Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-12-2014, 05:47 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 463
I have never had a management position at the airline or DALPA. The closest I have been to management was having the CEO of Delta personally threatening my job over my stand on furloughing pilots. I had the guts to sign the letters and take action beyond a web board. I have also had to meet with two other VP's over similar stands on issues. Never saw you there.
The only thing I want in the contract is the best wages and work rules we can get. We simply disagree on how to get there. I tend to be results oriented. I have watched over 30 years in this industry what works and what fails. Loud mouths and fist pounding has produced nothing.
Since the disasters of the early and mid 2000's there has only been one union that has that has produced a damn thing and that is DALPA. Everyone else has simply grabbed our coat tails and hung on.
You want to live under the 2004 rock forever. Someday however you will have to crawl out. Reality is that you work for a business. In business as they say cost is everything. I measure DALPA's success relative to our competition. You measure it relative to history. If other unions had produced the measured gains we have since 2005 we might be back to that small span of glory years and have restoration. Sadly they all failed and left us to not only do the heavy lifting but all the lifting.
The only thing I want in the contract is the best wages and work rules we can get. We simply disagree on how to get there. I tend to be results oriented. I have watched over 30 years in this industry what works and what fails. Loud mouths and fist pounding has produced nothing.
Since the disasters of the early and mid 2000's there has only been one union that has that has produced a damn thing and that is DALPA. Everyone else has simply grabbed our coat tails and hung on.
You want to live under the 2004 rock forever. Someday however you will have to crawl out. Reality is that you work for a business. In business as they say cost is everything. I measure DALPA's success relative to our competition. You measure it relative to history. If other unions had produced the measured gains we have since 2005 we might be back to that small span of glory years and have restoration. Sadly they all failed and left us to not only do the heavy lifting but all the lifting.
You seem to be a smart guy and have some friends within the inner circle of management/ALPA. It is disappointing to see you disseminate selective bits of information to spread a campaign of fear and hopelessness. To me and many others, that represents a poor strategy in maximizing our position.
The sacrifices Delta pilots have made and the way they conduct themselves every day operating with efficiency, interacting in a positive way with the customers, producing industry leading on time/completions factors....the current situation we are in now, can you think of anything positive to say about our position going into contract talks? Can you speak of any leverage at all? Will you advocate taking the first offer pushed across the table by management because "the next offer will be worse" and the time value of money says we should take what is offered now and live to fight another day?
Last edited by EdGrimley; 06-12-2014 at 05:58 AM.
06-12-2014, 05:51 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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06-12-2014, 05:56 AM
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Posts: 1,299
Ok, go before the NMB. When the company puts out block our numbers tell the NMB that we don't need to address that. If you read my post I clearly pointed out the fleet plan was a part of our being less efficient. To not study and understand its impact before entering contract negotiations would be stupid.
06-12-2014, 05:58 AM
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I was told that by a knowledgeable person working in contract admin. PBS alone produces zero decreases in staffing. How it is programmed is what reduces jobs for the company. You could program PBS to mimic the old line system in awards and have no gains.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions. That is huge. Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each. Elimination of the hard cap was huge. Getting rid of bow wave was huge. If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. The remaining 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions. That is huge. Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each. Elimination of the hard cap was huge. Getting rid of bow wave was huge. If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. The remaining 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
06-12-2014, 06:08 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
WRT us being 'one of the least efficient' airlines, this is an oversimplification of one aspect of running disparate fleet types. At one end of this spectrum you have an airline like SWA, running one aircraft type, keeping it in the air as much as possible, along with the crews. At the other end, you've got us, running 15 types through hubs, our pilots often sitting for hours waiting for a flight.
On the face of it, from a pure hours operating standpoint, we are less 'efficient'. But when you factor in hub revenue dynamics, right sized hulls at the right times, code share multipliers, and the increased revenue from HVC initiatives and upsales (business class and econo comfort) --- we produce more, much more... revenue than our contemporaries on a per-pilot basis.
That's one reason. Another is this: we run a safe, reliable operation, all over the world, 24\7\365. What our pay says about us is important----that we're worth it!
On the face of it, from a pure hours operating standpoint, we are less 'efficient'. But when you factor in hub revenue dynamics, right sized hulls at the right times, code share multipliers, and the increased revenue from HVC initiatives and upsales (business class and econo comfort) --- we produce more, much more... revenue than our contemporaries on a per-pilot basis.
That's one reason. Another is this: we run a safe, reliable operation, all over the world, 24\7\365. What our pay says about us is important----that we're worth it!
06-12-2014, 06:22 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2012
Position: A350
Posts: 629
I was told that by a knowledgeable person working in contract admin. PBS alone produces zero decreases in staffing. How it is programmed is what reduces jobs for the company. You could program PBS to mimic the old line system in awards and have no gains.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions. That is huge. Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each. Elimination of the hard cap was huge. Getting rid of bow wave was huge. If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. The remaining 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions. That is huge. Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each. Elimination of the hard cap was huge. Getting rid of bow wave was huge. If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. The remaining 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
Sailing, I like your posts. You deliver your point of view with a Joe Friday delivery. I would imagine that you are very straight forward in your approach to life. Some here take it as condescending, but I believe it is just a reflection of personality and conviction. I actually prefer it to the chest thumping hype that also permeates this board, but... let me offer this.
The really good posters balance their message with expertise, insight, affability, humor, and a willingness to exchange ideas. I'm thinking NewKnow, Bar, Buzzpat, Denny, et al. Perhaps you could include a joke or throw DPA a small compliment. You don't have to mean it. Or you could just get crazy and post dirty pics. At least Timbo would approve.
06-12-2014, 06:32 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,387
That seems like a reasonable summary of the PBS/Contract efficiency that we gave DAL. Metrics as it were.
Sailing, I like your posts. You deliver your point of view with a Joe Friday delivery. I would imagine that you are very straight forward in your approach to life. Some here take it as condescending, but I believe it is just a reflection of personality and conviction. I actually prefer it to the chest thumping hype that also permeates this board, but... let me offer this.
The really good posters balance their message with expertise, insight, affability, humor, and a willingness to exchange ideas. I'm thinking NewKnow, Bar, Buzzpat, Denny, et al. Perhaps you could include a joke or throw DPA a small compliment. You don't have to mean it. Or you could just get crazy and post dirty pics. At least Timbo would approve.
Sailing, I like your posts. You deliver your point of view with a Joe Friday delivery. I would imagine that you are very straight forward in your approach to life. Some here take it as condescending, but I believe it is just a reflection of personality and conviction. I actually prefer it to the chest thumping hype that also permeates this board, but... let me offer this.
The really good posters balance their message with expertise, insight, affability, humor, and a willingness to exchange ideas. I'm thinking NewKnow, Bar, Buzzpat, Denny, et al. Perhaps you could include a joke or throw DPA a small compliment. You don't have to mean it. Or you could just get crazy and post dirty pics. At least Timbo would approve.
06-12-2014, 06:34 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,415
I was told that by a knowledgeable person working in contract admin. PBS alone produces zero decreases in staffing. How it is programmed is what reduces jobs for the company. You could program PBS to mimic the old line system in awards and have no gains.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions. That is huge. Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each. Elimination of the hard cap was huge. Getting rid of bow wave was huge. If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. The remaining 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions. That is huge. Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each. Elimination of the hard cap was huge. Getting rid of bow wave was huge. If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. The remaining 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
Sailing,
You are correct. However I know that you understand that we went to PBS in the first place with the understanding that it would be implemented along with elimination of bow wave, trip conflicts, and the like.
In fact it wasn't so much the company told us "we need PBS" as it was "we can no longer afford trips touching, carryover conflicts, etc" and it was determined that PBS was the best avenue to deal with that going forward. In fact I can't think of a single airline that went from LOT bidding to PBS, but still kept all the old LOT provisions that resulted in so much trip conflicts and pilots getting paid for not working. What would be the point in the first place? That would be like trading in your old gas guzzler truck for a much smaller car, but then going out of your way to find a gas guzzling small sedan--the entire purpose is defeated in the first place.
06-12-2014, 06:34 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
I was told that by a knowledgeable person working in contract admin. PBS alone produces zero decreases in staffing. How it is programmed is what reduces jobs for the company. You could program PBS to mimic the old line system in awards and have no gains.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions. That is huge. Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each. Elimination of the hard cap was huge. Getting rid of bow wave was huge. If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. The remaining 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions. That is huge. Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each. Elimination of the hard cap was huge. Getting rid of bow wave was huge. If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. The remaining 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
06-12-2014, 06:44 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
That seems like a reasonable summary of the PBS/Contract efficiency that we gave DAL. Metrics as it were.
Sailing, I like your posts. You deliver your point of view with a Joe Friday delivery. I would imagine that you are very straight forward in your approach to life. Some here take it as condescending, but I believe it is just a reflection of personality and conviction. I actually prefer it to the chest thumping hype that also permeates this board, but... let me offer this.
The really good posters balance their message with expertise, insight, affability, humor, and a willingness to exchange ideas. I'm thinking NewKnow, Bar, Buzzpat, Denny, et al. Perhaps you could include a joke or throw DPA a small compliment. You don't have to mean it. Or you could just get crazy and post dirty pics. At least Timbo would approve.
Sailing, I like your posts. You deliver your point of view with a Joe Friday delivery. I would imagine that you are very straight forward in your approach to life. Some here take it as condescending, but I believe it is just a reflection of personality and conviction. I actually prefer it to the chest thumping hype that also permeates this board, but... let me offer this.
The really good posters balance their message with expertise, insight, affability, humor, and a willingness to exchange ideas. I'm thinking NewKnow, Bar, Buzzpat, Denny, et al. Perhaps you could include a joke or throw DPA a small compliment. You don't have to mean it. Or you could just get crazy and post dirty pics. At least Timbo would approve.
Original post.
I was told that by a knowledgeable person working in contract admin. PBS alone produces zero decreases in staffing. How it is programmed is what reduces jobs for the company. You could program PBS to mimic the old line system in awards and have no gains.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions. That is huge. Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each. Elimination of the hard cap was huge. Getting rid of bow wave was huge. If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. The remaining 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions. That is huge. Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each. Elimination of the hard cap was huge. Getting rid of bow wave was huge. If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. The remaining 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
Well, I know what you're getting at but PBS isn't the enemy per se, it's how it's programed that is the problem. You could program PBS to mimic the old line system and we could drop trips again for vacation.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions and that is huge because Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each and the elimination of the hard cap was huge as was getting rid of the bow wave was huge so we kissed a lot of things goodbye.
If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight. I mean that would be like walking into the bathroom and finding Hermonie asking why I haven't gotten in the tub yet.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. It totally sucks. Add on another 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
Sucks.
The vacation changes alone were worth 500 Captains positions and that is huge because Captains used to get up to 7 weeks of vacation and the first two weeks could generate a entire month off each and the elimination of the hard cap was huge as was getting rid of the bow wave was huge so we kissed a lot of things goodbye.
If tomorrow we changed to getting paid a max of ALV only with flying above that carried into bow wave the company would need close to a 1000 pilots overnight. I mean that would be like walking into the bathroom and finding Hermonie asking why I haven't gotten in the tub yet.
Vacation, PBS, bow wave and loss of the bow wave as a whole are over 20% of the lost jobs. It totally sucks. Add on another 4 or 5 percent is buried in tens of smaller changes.
Sucks.
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