Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-18-2014, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
Rumor only however it looks like the CDO's were not pushed hard by the company. They were desired and requested by pilots who were flying them and wanted them back.
What survey/poll did I miss asking about/regarding CDO's?
How many pilots petitioned or contacted their reps to bring back CDO's to warrant them being included in this LOA? Specifics please.
05-18-2014, 08:17 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
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Originally Posted by SawF16
NewK- I think the piece you are missing is that the current contract requires us to acknowledge- this was probably initially in the contract by the company for their own benefit. However, with the changes in 117, it became an item that benefits us. Unless The company could come up with something to make DALPA willing to give up this benefit, they wouldn't give it up. Probably if they had asked us to get rid of acknowledging trips 2-3 years ago the union would've given it much more cheaply. (Paid the $7000 from your example). But since it now has increased value, the company had to give more.
I'm not saying I'm in favor of the agreement, just that that may be what you are missing vs the company just unilaterally declaring "no acknowledgement required" back in January. It would still be a dicksonian change by decree.
I'm not saying I'm in favor of the agreement, just that that may be what you are missing vs the company just unilaterally declaring "no acknowledgement required" back in January. It would still be a dicksonian change by decree.
But, wouldn't we have gone for that and said, "Great! Hurry up! Let's put that in writing!"
I'm just going to sit back and watch the discussion for a bit. Sometimes, I just have to watch and learn. I'm sure my "Ah ha" moment will come soon.
Last edited by newKnow; 05-18-2014 at 08:27 AM.
05-18-2014, 08:18 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Flamer
We go to a assumed acknowledged system. Scheduling changes lineholder/reserve schedules all the time before/during/after trips. They have also been known to alter block times and change schedules without letting you know. CNO is a complete disaster. In all/any of these cases, who is going to get blamed when you are unaware of a change/addition? You think we have seen an increase of PDs so far?
Getting acknowledgement is the only thing that keeps scheduling remotely honest now. And, forget the spin. It is really a 3 hour leash for LC now to meet the real intent of the FARs.
If we go to this, all pilots will be checking their scheds a lot more than they are now. That is not cool.
Getting acknowledgement is the only thing that keeps scheduling remotely honest now. And, forget the spin. It is really a 3 hour leash for LC now to meet the real intent of the FARs.
If we go to this, all pilots will be checking their scheds a lot more than they are now. That is not cool.
I'm not trying to be a jailhouse lawyer and have no problem keeping my phone on, but I definitely don't spend much time on delta net unless I'm angling for a green slip.
05-18-2014, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
(Personally, the 30-hr layovers in SFO, PDX ... were just fine.)
05-18-2014, 08:23 AM
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More money, more time off. Isn't that what we all have asked for?
When you were hired at Delta, was there a space on the application that said "Bankers Hours Only"? Is getting paid more for a day of your time an improvement?
I flew CDO's a long time ago a a regional. They sucked. But what sucked the most was the penalty lap we had to do when we got back to the hub. The CDO itself wasn't nearly as bad as flying 2 man back from HNL, or a 5 leg MD88 trip with an 8 hour layover and a 13 hour duty day with a 5 AM east coast pick up. Or the 727 all nighters I did on reserve, west coast to Reno, then on to the east coast. Made for a long, long night.
People complain about a lot of things in this job, but if you don't think slamming your body through time zones is part of the gig, then you're deluding yourself.
I would wager a jelly donut that nobody who doesn't want to fly a CDO will have to. The people who do, will do so legally, because the FAR's permit it. If they are fatigued, then they are obliged not to sign the release. It's really that simple. 6 hours at a hotel? That's more sleep than I usually get on most of our early get up layovers anyhow. And only 2 legs, each less than 2 hours... and more likely much less, like 45 minutes? That sounds like a cake walk to me. Make it pay well and I'm all for it.
Airport ready reserve? Yes please. Shuttle standby was an incredible gig that paid very, very well. Are you a commuter? Then don't bid reserve. When has commuting to reserve ever been a good idea, at any airline? Too junior to hold a line? Then downbid, or wait a few months until you can, the movement is there now. Don't bid up then complain about your "juniority problem" that you created for yourself.
Still waiting for the details, but more money, more time off sounds pretty good to me...
When you were hired at Delta, was there a space on the application that said "Bankers Hours Only"? Is getting paid more for a day of your time an improvement?
I flew CDO's a long time ago a a regional. They sucked. But what sucked the most was the penalty lap we had to do when we got back to the hub. The CDO itself wasn't nearly as bad as flying 2 man back from HNL, or a 5 leg MD88 trip with an 8 hour layover and a 13 hour duty day with a 5 AM east coast pick up. Or the 727 all nighters I did on reserve, west coast to Reno, then on to the east coast. Made for a long, long night.
People complain about a lot of things in this job, but if you don't think slamming your body through time zones is part of the gig, then you're deluding yourself.
I would wager a jelly donut that nobody who doesn't want to fly a CDO will have to. The people who do, will do so legally, because the FAR's permit it. If they are fatigued, then they are obliged not to sign the release. It's really that simple. 6 hours at a hotel? That's more sleep than I usually get on most of our early get up layovers anyhow. And only 2 legs, each less than 2 hours... and more likely much less, like 45 minutes? That sounds like a cake walk to me. Make it pay well and I'm all for it.
Airport ready reserve? Yes please. Shuttle standby was an incredible gig that paid very, very well. Are you a commuter? Then don't bid reserve. When has commuting to reserve ever been a good idea, at any airline? Too junior to hold a line? Then downbid, or wait a few months until you can, the movement is there now. Don't bid up then complain about your "juniority problem" that you created for yourself.
Still waiting for the details, but more money, more time off sounds pretty good to me...
05-18-2014, 08:27 AM
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Posts: 488
Originally Posted by JungleBus
Pretty sure those would continue, no way they can be flown as a CDO. 30 hrs in GSO, would probably revert to a CDO. I could see there end up being a ton of CDOs on smaller stations out of ATL. Lots of places networking likes to put an 88 first flight out and last flight in, and DCI middle of the day. I really did think I'd left CDOs behind at the regionals. It's one of those super-sketchy practices they hope the public never finds out about. At my last airline, most CDO lineholders would end up dropping them into open time to pick up a normal trip, and some poor reserve would end up doing the CDO.
This too.
And add DTW and MSP to the base list, as well as the 717 and 320 to the aircraft. Lots of CDO's waiting to happen.
Imho CDO's are a Pandora's box we don't want to open, especially with the suppossed drawdown of 50 seat flying and the return of it to mainline.
05-18-2014, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by flyallnite
Don't bid up then complain about your "juniority problem" that you created for yourself.
.
.
05-18-2014, 08:32 AM
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Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by APCLurker
That is definitely the impression I am getting as well......
"Schedule with safety" ehh? 'Meh. As long as we make coin who cares, right?
CDO's suck. Period. They are fatiguing all the way around. I found them to be more fatiguing than redeyes. I would bet that any of the so-called "experts" that did the "scientific" gobbly-gook studies have never done any themselves. Make them do a months worth and see what they say then. In addition, some people seem to be in la-la land as to what the people who do CDO'S are doing during the day, prior to showing up for work three or four days in a row.
Not to mention it is a ridiculous step backwards towards the work rules of any two-bit regional contract. Especially when you take the other tidbit in this loa regarding the move to far 117 limits vs our current contractual limits. Far limits with CDO's.
Up next: airport ready-reserve.
"Schedule with safety" ehh? 'Meh. As long as we make coin who cares, right?
CDO's suck. Period. They are fatiguing all the way around. I found them to be more fatiguing than redeyes. I would bet that any of the so-called "experts" that did the "scientific" gobbly-gook studies have never done any themselves. Make them do a months worth and see what they say then. In addition, some people seem to be in la-la land as to what the people who do CDO'S are doing during the day, prior to showing up for work three or four days in a row.
Not to mention it is a ridiculous step backwards towards the work rules of any two-bit regional contract. Especially when you take the other tidbit in this loa regarding the move to far 117 limits vs our current contractual limits. Far limits with CDO's.
Up next: airport ready-reserve.
05-18-2014, 08:34 AM
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Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: DL
Posts: 136
Back to the "no acknowledgement" theory. Is it possible that no acknowledgement really means no acknowledgement of the rest (prospectively). If we now have 13 hours to report, and if we still have to acknowledge 3 hours prior, you could say that at any time we have 10 hours of rest. Kinda like the old way.... Is this scenario likely or do you guys have good intel stating absolutely no acknowledgement at all?
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