Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-21-2014, 11:52 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
I don't think we have any legs that would be eligible to be turned into CDO's.
05-21-2014, 11:54 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
How much rest did the pilot commuting at 14:00 to JFK to fly a 20:45 departure on a 10:40 leg get yesterday (with a 12:40 duty day)?
How well does he sleep in the BE seat with the FA's coming and going?
How well does he sleep with a 6 hour change in body clock?
How about doing the same thing on the way back?
How does a FDX pilot manage to get through a domestic 2-3 leg night?
(Additionally, the FDX pilot gets 6:00 pay, Delta pilots will get 7:30 pay)
How well does he sleep in the BE seat with the FA's coming and going?
How well does he sleep with a 6 hour change in body clock?
How about doing the same thing on the way back?
How does a FDX pilot manage to get through a domestic 2-3 leg night?
(Additionally, the FDX pilot gets 6:00 pay, Delta pilots will get 7:30 pay)
05-21-2014, 11:54 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: The Flying Wasp
Posts: 72
I understand the anti-cdo angst coming from guys that only experienced them under RJ operator scheduling, but I also sense a lot of feigned outrage coming from DPA supporters looking for something to be angry about. Anybody that worked in the DC-9 world at NWA knows d@mn good and well that those trips were extremely popular and very rarely ended up in open time. I don't have actual data, but I know that in every DC-9 base there were a lot of senior guys that flew nothing else. In 4 years on the nine I ended up flying one. To claim all those guys flying those trips for all those years were being unsafe is just plain silly.
If one pilot flies one of these things against his/her wishes then i consider it a concession, its time to stop horse trading and raise the bar while the company prints money
05-21-2014, 11:56 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
You're going to have to do better than "guess" to convince me.
ATL-SFO current:
5:30 x $220 = $1,210
5:30 x $150 = $825
(add 35% for bennies)
TOTAL $2,747
SFO-ATL
4:45 x $220 = $1,045
4:45 x $150 = $712
+35%
TOTAL $2,123
Logding/per diem (on a 17 hour layover):
$100 r/t limo
$300 two rooms
$126 for 28:45 hour of per diem x2
TOTAL $526
Grand total: $5,396
ATL-SFO-ATL augmented:
5:30 x $220 = $1,210
4:45 x $220 = $1,045
5:30 x $150 = $825
5:30 x $150 = $825
4:45 x $150 = $712
4:45 x $150 = $712
add 35%
TOTAL= $7,194
$84 add for 12:45 per diem x3
FC seat from ATL-SFO in July mid-week $1356 going $1500 returning.
DAL has an average of 12% operating margin (higher in premium but let's stay conservative) $2,856 x 12% = $343
Grand Total =$7,620 to operate as a Augment
$7,620-$5,296 = $2,325
Ain't no way the company will spend $2,325 per ATL-SFO round trip to augment just for augment's sake.
Because they aren't reducing a Captain (it still takes 1 to fly out and one to fly back).... It would be merely adding an FO and eliminating a Revenue FC seat.
This is the same as the company paying an FO to DH in a FC seat for the round trip. It does not make financial sense.
ATL-SFO current:
5:30 x $220 = $1,210
5:30 x $150 = $825
(add 35% for bennies)
TOTAL $2,747
SFO-ATL
4:45 x $220 = $1,045
4:45 x $150 = $712
+35%
TOTAL $2,123
Logding/per diem (on a 17 hour layover):
$100 r/t limo
$300 two rooms
$126 for 28:45 hour of per diem x2
TOTAL $526
Grand total: $5,396
ATL-SFO-ATL augmented:
5:30 x $220 = $1,210
4:45 x $220 = $1,045
5:30 x $150 = $825
5:30 x $150 = $825
4:45 x $150 = $712
4:45 x $150 = $712
add 35%
TOTAL= $7,194
$84 add for 12:45 per diem x3
FC seat from ATL-SFO in July mid-week $1356 going $1500 returning.
DAL has an average of 12% operating margin (higher in premium but let's stay conservative) $2,856 x 12% = $343
Grand Total =$7,620 to operate as a Augment
$7,620-$5,296 = $2,325
Ain't no way the company will spend $2,325 per ATL-SFO round trip to augment just for augment's sake.
Because they aren't reducing a Captain (it still takes 1 to fly out and one to fly back).... It would be merely adding an FO and eliminating a Revenue FC seat.
This is the same as the company paying an FO to DH in a FC seat for the round trip. It does not make financial sense.
I'm still more concerned not about the leg-by-leg but the monthly staffing changes.
I'm... intrigued to see the language. Won't have a problem if it really closes the gate on all but the MIL, dangerous locations (Juno) and so forth. The CDO is also one I can't wait to read on.
05-21-2014, 11:57 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
What is the company getting for this TA anyways? From their perspective?
05-21-2014, 11:59 AM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
ftb... I love you bro, but you've gotta come off the domestic augment thing. Your math isn't correct and shiznit has you on it. If it ever does happen, it'll be on one-offs that are exceedingly rare.
CDOs on the other hand... that's where the potential exists for a down in this contract. I'm very intrigued to hear the reports from their discussion on it at the MEC meeting.
CDOs on the other hand... that's where the potential exists for a down in this contract. I'm very intrigued to hear the reports from their discussion on it at the MEC meeting.
05-21-2014, 12:00 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
How often is DAL going to want to pay pilots 7:30 for doing around 3:00 of block?
Every other post on here is about how efficient Delta strives to be and keep pilot staffing to a minimum...with 7:30 there is already a disincentive to DAL built in.
If they can fly the two legs as part of regular rotations that make it pay by block instead of credit, they will do it.....to minimize excess staffing
Where DAL cannot minimize the credit due to a single mainline flight each night/morning that happens to not offer a 10:00 min rest, then this becomes an option.. not a guarantee.
I don't see the CDO's exploding all over the system, it's still too much credit versus block for DAL to use unless necessary.
05-21-2014, 12:01 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
It's not impossible to do these safely.
It's just that the price to pay would be to sacrifice any semblance of a life, and some will therefore choose poorly. That's my concern about CDO's: if you do them right, they're not worth the disruption, and if you don't get enough sleep, you're likely compromising safety. The third option is to get out of it somehow, and let some poor bastard make the call for you. Which is no option at all.
It's just that the price to pay would be to sacrifice any semblance of a life, and some will therefore choose poorly. That's my concern about CDO's: if you do them right, they're not worth the disruption, and if you don't get enough sleep, you're likely compromising safety. The third option is to get out of it somehow, and let some poor bastard make the call for you. Which is no option at all.
05-21-2014, 12:03 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Is it really all that different?
How often is DAL going to want to pay pilots 7:30 for doing around 3:00 of block?
Every other post on here is about how efficient Delta strives to be and keep pilot staffing to a minimum...with 7:30 there is already a disincentive to DAL built in.
If they can fly the two legs as part of regular rotations that make it pay by block instead of credit, they will do it.....to minimize excess staffing
Where DAL cannot minimize the credit due to a single mainline flight each night/morning that happens to not offer a 10:00 min rest, then this becomes an option.. not a guarantee.
I don't see the CDO's exploding all over the system, it's still too much credit versus block for DAL to use unless necessary.
How often is DAL going to want to pay pilots 7:30 for doing around 3:00 of block?
Every other post on here is about how efficient Delta strives to be and keep pilot staffing to a minimum...with 7:30 there is already a disincentive to DAL built in.
If they can fly the two legs as part of regular rotations that make it pay by block instead of credit, they will do it.....to minimize excess staffing
Where DAL cannot minimize the credit due to a single mainline flight each night/morning that happens to not offer a 10:00 min rest, then this becomes an option.. not a guarantee.
I don't see the CDO's exploding all over the system, it's still too much credit versus block for DAL to use unless necessary.
05-21-2014, 12:03 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: DAL A320 CA
Posts: 559
Well up to a few months ago an 8 hour layover was safe/legal and smoking is wildly popular in Asia, doesn't mean I want to do either.
If one pilot flies one of these things against his/her wishes then i consider it a concession, its time to stop horse trading and raise the bar while the company prints money
If one pilot flies one of these things against his/her wishes then i consider it a concession, its time to stop horse trading and raise the bar while the company prints money
Sitting in STL after SLC-STL last night, FA's on a stand-up. Passenger went bat-$hit crazy in the back, diverted to MCI..after 1.5 hrs of paperwork and all the fun that goes with it, made it to STL at 0200. FA's had to be up at 0500 for the early departure back to SLC..we went to the hotel. Even under the proposed IROP 3 hrs of rest on a CDO, I would have felt the pain going back with the FA's in the morning. It's not worth it.
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