Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-28-2014 | 07:22 AM
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,263
Likes: 105
From: DAL 330
Hopefully they were given a blanket party by all the guys who would have been furloughed due to massively increased productivity this incredibly stupid/from a pilot perspective/ idea would have caused. Probably the bottom 15 %of the list. Tell me your address an I'll be sure to attend the next beating if you mention this company antipilot wet dream again.
RK,
You lost me here. Are you threatening another DAL Pilot for making a suggestion? As a matter of fact I agree with you on this issue but am not sure if you were joking (I dont see a
) or if this was just a poor choice of words.I am hoping you just left off the smiley thingy.
Scoop
05-28-2014 | 07:31 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,847
Likes: 0
From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Good work on showing the math in public Ron Rico, but don't forget about the 'real reason' the company would LOVE a longevity based pay system, and that is reduced manning, due to the reduced training you eluded to.
We are coming off 5 years of stagnation due to age 65 and merger synergy, so going forward, there will be a lot more pilots swapping seats and stuck in training for a month or more. How many pilots are -off line- going to school is hard to say, but let's use 10% because the math is easier.
IF we had LBP, there would be far fewer pilots playing musical chairs, chasing the big bucks into a widebody, so far fewer pilots required on the seniority list. The bottom 10% of every category could be lopped off, and thus the bottom 10%, or about 1100 pilots on the bottom, would go out the door, or the top 1100 retire and not be replaced.
Then there is the "Productivity" argument. Once you decouple aircraft pay rates from aircraft productivity, why should the company pay a 747 Captain any more than a 50 seat RJ Captain?
We are coming off 5 years of stagnation due to age 65 and merger synergy, so going forward, there will be a lot more pilots swapping seats and stuck in training for a month or more. How many pilots are -off line- going to school is hard to say, but let's use 10% because the math is easier.
IF we had LBP, there would be far fewer pilots playing musical chairs, chasing the big bucks into a widebody, so far fewer pilots required on the seniority list. The bottom 10% of every category could be lopped off, and thus the bottom 10%, or about 1100 pilots on the bottom, would go out the door, or the top 1100 retire and not be replaced.
Then there is the "Productivity" argument. Once you decouple aircraft pay rates from aircraft productivity, why should the company pay a 747 Captain any more than a 50 seat RJ Captain?
Last edited by Timbo; 05-28-2014 at 07:48 AM.
05-28-2014 | 07:34 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 770
Likes: 0
I agree with a point that Scoop made about QOL regarding pay bans. I personally have throttled back to spend more time with my family as a wide body F/O. If we did a pay band that moderated F/O pay, pilots in my position would be motivated to take the narrowbody captain jobs that we can hold to get the more significant captain pay increase (especially, in light of the new productivity that would erode the differences in QOL). So, if you see yourself as a narrowbody captain benefitting from a pay ban, consider the unintended consequence of today's QOL senior F/O's putting downward pressure on the back half of the seniority list's chances for upgrade to captain.
And more generally, it seems like less choice would be less better.
And more generally, it seems like less choice would be less better.
05-28-2014 | 07:39 AM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
05-28-2014 | 07:41 AM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
This sounds like a time for
Excel Spreadsheet Super Hero Man!
Fact or Fiction?
Tsquare: " I know the 777 has a higher percentage of mandatory retirements coming in the nest few years"
........ ... .... need double if statement... . ... ... ...
TRUE.
If you're dumb enough to trust ESSHM, the 777A is going to lose 26% of its pilots (72 total) in the next 3 years. The 744A comes in at 21% (46).
Now the next highest percentage of loss comes from the 765A losing 23% or 41 pilots in the next 3 years, the 330A only loses 12% or 36 pilots.
NB? The 717A will lose a higher % of As to retirement then the M88A (3% vs 2%), although there are nearly 1000 M88As vs 185 717As.
The 7ERA will lose 109 As but that is only 7% of that category.
I think the whole DTW744A -> ATL744A is nothing more than an effort to irritate FNWA. The thought is that because of the fence that DTW744A is junior-ish. Thus if you closed it and reopened it in ATL at the end of the year then senior guys would bid it and flush out all of the FNWA from 744A.
The only thing is training capacity couldn't handle a complete flush, you'd be taking As (there's only a dozen-ish Bs senior to the 744A plug) and moving them to the 744 which probably wouldn't happen in mass and why bother?
ATL 744 departures per day... 1
DTW 744 departures per day... 2
MSP 744 departures per day... 1
LGA 744 departures per day... 0
SLC 744 departures per day... 0
CVG 744 departures per day... 0
LAX 744 departures per day... 1
SEA 744 departures per day... 0 <- big mistake if they want to troll Alaskan Airlines
JFK 744 departures per day... 2
Excel Spreadsheet Super Hero Man!
Fact or Fiction?
Tsquare: " I know the 777 has a higher percentage of mandatory retirements coming in the nest few years"
........ ... .... need double if statement... . ... ... ...
TRUE.
If you're dumb enough to trust ESSHM, the 777A is going to lose 26% of its pilots (72 total) in the next 3 years. The 744A comes in at 21% (46).
Now the next highest percentage of loss comes from the 765A losing 23% or 41 pilots in the next 3 years, the 330A only loses 12% or 36 pilots.
NB? The 717A will lose a higher % of As to retirement then the M88A (3% vs 2%), although there are nearly 1000 M88As vs 185 717As.
The 7ERA will lose 109 As but that is only 7% of that category.
I think the whole DTW744A -> ATL744A is nothing more than an effort to irritate FNWA. The thought is that because of the fence that DTW744A is junior-ish. Thus if you closed it and reopened it in ATL at the end of the year then senior guys would bid it and flush out all of the FNWA from 744A.
The only thing is training capacity couldn't handle a complete flush, you'd be taking As (there's only a dozen-ish Bs senior to the 744A plug) and moving them to the 744 which probably wouldn't happen in mass and why bother?
ATL 744 departures per day... 1
DTW 744 departures per day... 2
MSP 744 departures per day... 1
LGA 744 departures per day... 0
SLC 744 departures per day... 0
CVG 744 departures per day... 0
LAX 744 departures per day... 1
SEA 744 departures per day... 0 <- big mistake if they want to troll Alaskan Airlines
JFK 744 departures per day... 2
Oh, and I think this is a little overdramatic
I think the whole DTW744A -> ATL744A is nothing more than an effort to irritate FNWA. The thought is that because of the fence that DTW744A is junior-ish. Thus if you closed it and reopened it in ATL at the end of the year then senior guys would bid it and flush out all of the FNWA from 744A.
05-28-2014 | 07:51 AM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Has anyone ever actually submitted a motion at a council meeting in favor of 2-tier pay rates (CAPT/FO) and scheduled annual increases well after the 12-year mark?
It just seems like eliminating pilots' financial incentive to change aircraft every so often would so reduce training churn that it would represent a windfall we could negotiate to put in our pockets.
So, seriously, has anyone submitted a motion to this effect? If so, what happened?
It just seems like eliminating pilots' financial incentive to change aircraft every so often would so reduce training churn that it would represent a windfall we could negotiate to put in our pockets.
So, seriously, has anyone submitted a motion to this effect? If so, what happened?
05-28-2014 | 07:54 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,831
Likes: 172
From: window seat
05-28-2014 | 07:57 AM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Frank,
I guarantee you the Co. looks at pay-banding as a HUGE money saving opportunity. Better think hard about what that means for us. Sure we'd see some short term gains on the surface but likely at the long term cost of career advancement. I don't want a trivial pay raise in exchange for reduced career progression opportunities. The biggest pay raise you'll get is moving to a higher paying seat.
Sorry, but I kinda doubt all WB will get paid at 777/744 rates, nor MNB at 739, or SNB at M88 rates with additional time in grade steps. Management says training is no cost, so what's the incentive other than to reduce staffing (=increased productivity) which helps us how?
Strikes me as more selling off of our career for transient dollars. Staffing = seniority, and while pay comes and goes seniority is form entire working lives
I guarantee you the Co. looks at pay-banding as a HUGE money saving opportunity. Better think hard about what that means for us. Sure we'd see some short term gains on the surface but likely at the long term cost of career advancement. I don't want a trivial pay raise in exchange for reduced career progression opportunities. The biggest pay raise you'll get is moving to a higher paying seat.
Sorry, but I kinda doubt all WB will get paid at 777/744 rates, nor MNB at 739, or SNB at M88 rates with additional time in grade steps. Management says training is no cost, so what's the incentive other than to reduce staffing (=increased productivity) which helps us how?
Strikes me as more selling off of our career for transient dollars. Staffing = seniority, and while pay comes and goes seniority is form entire working lives
What is advancement? You have a pulse, survive another year and get a payraise. Advancing to what? A "bigger" airplane? I am better than halfway up the seniority list at DAL, and there are a TON of guys ahead of me on the M88. There are quite a few on the 717. Not everybody wants to fly the 777 or 747. Not everybody wants to fly international. I sure as hell don't want to "fly" an Airbus. And I'll GUARANTEE you that if we went to longevity pay the most senior airplane would be the 737 in ATL. Guarantee it. QOL baby. Why does it have to be sacrificed for pay?
05-28-2014 | 08:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,831
Likes: 172
From: window seat
Email from a friend at Endeavor
Wait another 2 weeks and see what management creates to keep the endeavor pilots from jumping ship. They are losing 50 pilots per month and only replacing 8 because of the crappy pilot contract that was forced upon them from management and ALPA. The are going to dangle keeping more 50 seater's than originally planned as well as a flow through.
Now what happens to those who were unsuccessful in the ssp? Are They now become eligible to become Delta pilot's because management needs to pay them slave wages? So instead of admitting they screwed up by forcing these changes to pilots pay and benefits. ... management and Alpa will dangle a flow through to staff endeavor. Endeavor is already paying former captain's who were downgraded to FO, captain rates again, just to keep them from leaving for Spirit and jet blue. Last week alone I heard 30 pilots put in their 2 week notice for places like Spirit and Jet Blue.
Look for massive cancelations this summer from endeavor. This was a management decision that back fired but I suspect they and Alpa will spin it as a positive within 2 week's. Lastly, endeavor had to return or turn down 3700 hours of flying for July.
Watch for the floe headline within 2 weeks...I wish I could put money down on this in Vegas!
Wait another 2 weeks and see what management creates to keep the endeavor pilots from jumping ship. They are losing 50 pilots per month and only replacing 8 because of the crappy pilot contract that was forced upon them from management and ALPA. The are going to dangle keeping more 50 seater's than originally planned as well as a flow through.
Now what happens to those who were unsuccessful in the ssp? Are They now become eligible to become Delta pilot's because management needs to pay them slave wages? So instead of admitting they screwed up by forcing these changes to pilots pay and benefits. ... management and Alpa will dangle a flow through to staff endeavor. Endeavor is already paying former captain's who were downgraded to FO, captain rates again, just to keep them from leaving for Spirit and jet blue. Last week alone I heard 30 pilots put in their 2 week notice for places like Spirit and Jet Blue.
Look for massive cancelations this summer from endeavor. This was a management decision that back fired but I suspect they and Alpa will spin it as a positive within 2 week's. Lastly, endeavor had to return or turn down 3700 hours of flying for July.
Watch for the floe headline within 2 weeks...I wish I could put money down on this in Vegas!
DL would end up with guys they wouldn't hire, some of which may not have even come close, and Pinnacle will still be losing a ton of pilots because even with a flow guarantee it makes no sense to put up with several years of low pay and abuse if you can bail to greener pastures way sooner anyway.
Another colossal B-school miscalculation.
05-28-2014 | 08:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,831
Likes: 172
From: window seat
Agreed. It would also help the company send a powerful message to a snarky rival that thinks its in some power position to set the tone and dictate how its going to be for some reason.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
