Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Delta (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/)
-   -   Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta.html)

scambo1 07-04-2014 01:22 PM


Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 1677579)
Actually they had a July 4th BBQ party at the NH. Pretty nice Delta event. We even got to throw eggs at the staff -- all for charity.

Still, too many jeans, polo shirts, sneakers and fake Rolexes.

wifebeaters, shorts, keens, and tattoos.:rolleyes:

scambo1 07-04-2014 01:26 PM


Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1677643)
Nope. Fail. Totally.

Gotta hide that increase in compensation or Wall Street goes bat****. Give me 5:30/day and the same payrate. More /day of vacation. Training time in the sim is 1:1 (just like the instructors)... Fill my 401(k) in the first quarter of the year.... things like that. Straight pay rates increase is a losing, and stupid goal. Sorry.

Certainly a place T an I agree. 6 hrs/day and I'll bid domestic capt. I wouldn't call him stupid though, just not thinking about the big picture. Happy 4th all.

scambo1 07-04-2014 01:35 PM


Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 1677671)
Fully funding the 401k would be a nice (and not so obvious -- to the media -- anyway) way of getting a yes vote out of me. A start, anyway. Since most of us are partly funding, it would be an immediate and substantial raise.

If dal funded the 401k to the 415c limit without any required input from me, I personally would consider that a huge improvement.

EdGrimley 07-04-2014 01:51 PM

I know the DALPA "establishment" and those who subscribe to the L. Moak way of doing business, believing RJ outsourcing makes sense will disagree, but this is the most promising letter for change I have seen come out of ALPA in a very long time. Watch for the usual suspects to attack the character of this person and label as illegitimate. After all it threatens their power/lifestyle/control. That said, when truth is spoken it rings clear. I see a lot of truth in this letter.

Oberndorf for President 2014
“This is Your Campaign”


I’d like to thank everyone for the overwhelming response to the announcement of my campaign. Your financial contributions and letters of concern for where we are headed in this industry have proven to me that the membership is seeking engagement, but often times does not know how to become involved. As we move forward together to affect real change, my first promise to you is that I will give this union back to the membership and work tirelessly to eliminate the gulf that has been created between line pilots and our union leadership in Washington D.C.

While my campaign has indeed garnered tremendous support, there will always be critical voices that echo ALPA’s status quo. My ideas embrace something different. I welcome the opportunity to discuss my vision and position on all of the issues in this campaign – YOUR campaign. Unfortunately, I don’t think you’ll find any other ALPA Presidential candidate willing to engage in a discussion about their vision, platform or the critical issues facing our union and our careers.

So as we proceed forward with your campaign, I would like to ask that when you are personally faced with criticism of our platform and/or campaign, ask the critic some simple questions to get a feel for why they are supporting institutional mediocrity:

Is the status quo of ALPA really serving you?

Are you happy with the way the major airline pilots’ careers have evolved over the last 4 decades since deregulation?

Why should the members not have a voice in electing those that lead them?

Whose platform or campaign for ALPA President should we be supporting, and why?

Do you not see the outsourcing of 2/3rds of our domestic block hours to a B-Scale operation as a problem?



The RJ Debacle
(The Good the Bad and the Ugly)

The subject of Regional Jets elicits strong opinions from just about every airline pilot in North America, yet, since the molds were cast in the 1990s, the conceptual pretexts of this outsourcing continue to be one of the most neglected subjects of our union. Once elected, I will sit down with all the shareholders in this continuing debacle of outsourcing and insourcing, and we will build a strategy that puts us on a path to unity and solidarity and secures the career we all sought.

I cut my teeth in aviation in the commuters. I feel that I was fortunate to have an opportunity for career progression, but that is not the case with most of our pilots who have been stuck at regional airlines for years working for B-Scale wages which were implemented in one of the biggest career giveaways of all time. I’d like to explore the story of our former leaders' malfeasance and lack of due diligence which was illustrated by their failure to create a career path for airline pilots by allowing jet flying at feeder carriers. I will then discuss the next phase of this disaster that has been fostered between managements and unions at both the Regional and Major airline levels.

Entering the era of deregulation, pilots of mainline carriers were fortunate to possess hard-won, mature labor contracts that generally included strong scope language limiting all turbo-jet/non-propeller operations to the represented pilot group. “Double breasting,” opening up a non-union shop in order to operate turbo jet equipment for the parent airline was strictly forbidden. Proponents of relaxing scope language would argue that what was at stake was not truly “double breasting” because the small turbojets in question were “smaller” than the smallest turbojets flown by the majors at that time. Instead, it became a specious argument to be made in defense of the latest management B-Scale scheme to continue the outsourcing.

In the mid-1990’s, ALPA and other pilot groups, collectively and controversially decided to open the door to agreements with their carriers which allowed jet flying at feeder airlines. New “Regional Jets” were developed by manufacturers who promoted them as replacements for their existing turboprops in a more modern, economical jet age. These jets were a little smaller than the 65-70 seat jets traditionally flown at mainline carriers at that time. Furthermore, jet flying at feeder airlines had always been strictly controlled (generally forbidden) as part of the typical union effort to protect class and craft, and to eliminate or prevent “double breasting.” The issue was emotional, sometimes vitriolic, and it led to a great deal of upheaval in the pilot union leadership at many of our airlines. All of this turmoil bred a new generation of ALPA volunteer who, over time, would replace the senior union leaders who had been with us from the deregulation era up to this Regional Jet era. Unfortunately, the issue of regional jets also developed into a senior vs. junior pilot issue. At every major airline there existed a group of senior pilots who were dedicated to negotiating new contracts that would allow jet flying at the feeders as a means of protecting their wide-body flying. Their arguments universally seemed to be based on promises and fears that could not be quantified or validated in regard to consequences, except with the passage of time. The main argument at the time usually boiled down to, “Do you want to fly big jets, or do you want to fly small ones?” It was an argument completely lacking in the kind of long-term view that we had every right to expect from union officials who had been elected to protect and enhance the airline piloting profession.

Scope clauses were touted as the answer to any devious plans that management might have, so therefore “We’d have nothing to worry about.” Collectively saying “NO” would have been a one-time event that would have created opportunities for out-of-the-box thinking, but as we have seen with management’s appetite for evermore outsourcing, we continue to pay for the error of saying “yes” every time we negotiate a new contract at EVERY airline. What is worse is that those “rock solid scope clauses” invariably crumbled at the next economic downturn, a fact exacerbated by the events of September 11th 2001 and that continued into the Great Recession. The devastation that resulted the following decade can be attributed (in part) to our union’s stunning lack of vision and failure to defend our profession.

As corporations rushed to dissolve these protections in bankruptcy or extreme financial distress, our union leadership capitulated often, giving up more Scope and the hard-won working provisions of regulation era contracts - all in the interest of “saving our retirements and wide-body flying”.

My letter to you today is not meant to delve into all the other concessions and losses the majors suffered over the “lost decade” of the 2000s, which were many, but rather to focus on the RJ B-Scale. So let me sum up the foolishness of allowing our companies to set up other mills, up and down the river, which would do the same job for lower wages: The Big Jets never came! Concessions were given, jobs were lost (or offloaded to the other mills), and careers were stunted and damaged, or simply never materialized. When the big jets did come, they were often painted in the livery of major airline international alliance partners because our “union leaders” of this time were making the same mistakes at both ends of the spectrum. A massive percentage of our jobs were not only shifting to the RJ B-Scale side of the house, but also shifting to other international mills and being shopped “up and down the river” on the other side as well. It was certainly one of the most epic failures of a labor union to protect a class and craft.

So ALPA’s plan was simple and reactionary in the 1990s - trade big jets for little ones. As much as it lacked vision, it was also a plan that would set us all up for failure as the market crises arose. As RJ’s became more and more prevalent in the industry, many RJ pilots began to feel as though a career at the majors was beyond their reach so they might as well just settle in where they found themselves. This struggle was made bleaker by weak union leadership that continued to allow more and larger RJs at the feeders. All these concessionary agreements added years to the time pilots would spend at the feeder carriers and put the prospect of a good paying airline job just about out of sight for most pilots.

Once upon a time, a young airline pilot would have been fortunate to have been hired by a major even when it meant he or she may spend years at the bottom ranks. This was because the airline had a contract that had matured over many decades and came with the pay and benefits to match. The lack of foresight and failure of leadership by the pilot unions meant that instead, this young pilot would grow old and spend a decade or more in the regional airline industry working tirelessly for B-scale wages and B-scale benefits. Unfortunately, the standard industry model that won the day was to pit one company against another in a brutal race to cut costs to be the lowest cost carrier that could win the contract. Could a more destructive course have been charted by any labor union? Looking back it’s hard to see how.

Ask yourself this: What happened to the union “leaders” of those days? Randy Babbitt, Duane Woerth, Howard Attarian (and even some of the ALPA staffers of those days) sure seem to have done well for themselves - but not as airline pilots. When someone wishes to criticize our campaign, speaking in favor of the ALPA status quo, ask them how many of the ALPA leaders from those good old days have moved into management positions?

Where was ALPA and what was ALPA doing while this disaster worked its way across our profession? Organizing the Regionals! The absurdity of this answer should be apparent as we watch the pendulum swing in the opposite direction now while majors gain contract scope clauses that seek to reign in and limit flying at the feeders. To any rational outsider it would look as if we created the RJ paradigm to bring down the majors, and now the majors are hell bent on bringing down the Regionals! Who has been working to bring both groups together to battle the corporations as one body? Why does it seem that there is always at least one group being harmed or feeling neglected by our association? Why do we continue to tolerate union “leadership” that proposes plans and schemes that pit pilot against pilot?


“Provisioning” Rises Up in
Present Day Contract Negotiations

The latest scheme raised by airline managements and eagerly seized upon by some negotiators and union “leaders” is the dangerous notion that outsourcing in the form of “provisioning” might work out just fine for our profession.

What is Provisioning?

As envisioned by airline managements who are seeking new and innovative ways to divide labor groups, slash labor costs and outsource our careers; Provisioning will finally allow the major airline pilots to take back flying that has been sent to the Regionals. Pilots on the seniority lists of mainline carriers get to take back flying? So what’s wrong with that you might ask?

That would be fine if we were talking about bringing the current regional pilots into the mainline pilot groups and onto the mainline seniority lists in order to broaden the grasp of the union, foster solidarity, and create better mainline-quality jobs where none currently exist. But no, that is not what we are talking about. This new “Provisioning” process would simply continue to transfer more mainline jobs off-property to outside mills where those pilots would fly more and ever larger “small jets”. I don’t know if you can call the new Bombardier or Embraer jets “small” any longer when you consider how big the Caravelle and DC-9 were, but in any case this “Provisioning” scheme is just the latest idea proposed by management to outsource the piloting profession and force major airline pilots down to the outsourced companies and consequently, force current feeder and regional pilots out the door.

But wait, the pilots would work under their major airline contracts, which tend to be quite good, so what’s the problem? The mechanics, flight attendants, customer service agents, ramp, and support staff that work at these outsourced companies would NOT be working under contract for the major airline affiliate like the pilots. So now we have major airline pilots sent down to work for bottom feeder managements, answerable to their Chief Pilots and Flight Operation Manuals, being trained under FAA minimum safety standards, using crew management technology and IT tools from who knows where. What happens when a feeder carrier loses the mainline contract? Do we now sit home with no pay until we’re transferred to another feeder carrier with a whole new set of training and operational procedures? Where will this “provisioning” end? Will this open the door for managements to transfer their entire narrow body fleet to outsourced companies?

ALPA and its attorneys and negotiating committees continue to chase their tails in an effort to figure out how to spin “provisioning” as a benefit for pilots instead of attempting to understand the larger ramifications of management’s latest attempt to divide labor and pit pilot against pilot. This seems to be par for the course. Management has an uncanny ability and desire to look well into the future and put a plan in place that will pay big dividends for them, while the union can’t seem to look past their own nose. Make no mistake about it; “Provisioning” will ultimately create many divisions of smaller groups within the union which will allow managements to further their agenda of slashing labor costs by easily obtaining more concessionary agreements from a splintered and dysfunctional labor group.


* * * *


Members of ALPA, when elected I will spare no expense to push an agenda, alongside all advocates of our profession. We will educate Congress, the American public, and our own line pilots as to what the future holds for us if we stand flat on our feet as we have so many times in the past. I have no problem having a relationship with the corporations and their Airlines For America (A4A) trade group, but I’d like to be very clear that it will be a much different relationship than currently exists. If the A4A truly has “skin in the game," we can most certainly work together for the benefit and sustainability of our profession and the airline industry.

Please visit our website to see how you can help and get involved.

oberndorf

Fraternally,
Heide Oberndorf

Starcheck102 07-04-2014 02:20 PM

That is the most bloated piece of nonsense I have ever seen. You might see truth, but I see shameless pandering, and mindless populism.

Hillbilly 07-04-2014 02:50 PM


Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 1677671)
Fully funding the 401k would be a nice (and not so obvious -- to the media -- anyway) way of getting a yes vote out of me. A start, anyway. Since most of us are partly funding, it would be an immediate and substantial raise.


Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1677681)
If dal funded the 401k to the 415c limit without any required input from me, I personally would consider that a huge improvement.

Amen to that! Having a max funded 401k and returning all of my future contribution amounts to my direct deposit would be a very welcome improvement. I'm all for it! :)

Hillbilly 07-04-2014 02:59 PM


Originally Posted by EdGrimley (Post 1677687)

Oberndorf for President 2014
“This is Your Campaign”

Members of ALPA, when elected I will spare no expense to push an agenda, alongside all advocates of our profession. We will educate Congress, the American public, and our own line pilots as to what the future holds for us if we stand flat on our feet as we have so many times in the past. I have no problem having a relationship with the corporations and their Airlines For America (A4A) trade group, but I’d like to be very clear that it will be a much different relationship than currently exists. If the A4A truly has “skin in the game," we can most certainly work together for the benefit and sustainability of our profession and the airline industry.

Fraternally,
Heide Oberndorf

She wrote a lot about how everyone else has messed things up, but I haven't seen anything yet that indicates what her agenda, for which she clearly indicates she will spare no expense promoting, is. While I doubt it is the case, for all I know at this point her agenda is elimination of a retirement age and facilitation of cabotage. It's no surprise that someone running for a position like that has an agenda, I just don't know what hers is yet and whether or not I would be in agreement with it.

Falcon7 07-04-2014 03:37 PM


Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1677288)
So here is some hard math, I will get a few kicks watching you squirm out of what you have proclaimed so loudly.

Let's look at pay first. The compounded increase in pay was 19.7%. Other pay items (MD-88, per diem, international pay, etc.) added another .8%. Increased DC another 1% that sums to 21.5% Profit sharing decrease equaled 2% loss so the net on pay is 19.5%

Let's assume that you start with an average pilot cost of $160,000 per pilot (that's low but close enough) with 11,000 pilots. Net cost is $1.76 billion.

Now, increase the average by 19.5% and the average cost goes up to $191,200 per head. In order to be "cost neutral" or no net cost as you claim, you would have to reduce the pilot count to 9,205 ($1.76 billion divided by $191,200) pilots or a loss of 1,795 pilots. That is how much the "massive" productivity gains would force you to lose.

Below is a graph that shows the trailing twelve month average of pilots required. You use pilots required rather than actual head count, because pilots required is the number required by the contract and that is how you measure the impact of work rule changes. You use a trailing twelve month average to smooth out the vagaries of seasonal flying changes. That graph does not seem to show a loss of 1,795 jobs even before the 717's arrived. Explain

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Required.JPG

Very interesting. Thanks for posting that info.

80ktsClamp 07-04-2014 04:41 PM


Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1677643)
Nope. Fail. Totally.

Gotta hide that increase in compensation or Wall Street goes bat****. Give me 5:30/day and the same payrate. More /day of vacation. Training time in the sim is 1:1 (just like the instructors)... Fill my 401(k) in the first quarter of the year.... things like that. Straight pay rates increase is a losing, and stupid goal. Sorry.

100% there with you on this one, t.

80ktsClamp 07-04-2014 04:42 PM


Originally Posted by Starcheck102 (Post 1677705)
That is the most bloated piece of nonsense I have ever seen. You might see truth, but I see shameless pandering, and mindless populism.

I won't be voting for her.


oh, wait. :(


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:29 PM.


Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands