Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-11-2014 | 04:57 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
09-11-2014 | 04:59 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
It is a lot like walking in the door to your home and finding a burglar who also just raped your wife, but a cop is there. You can't do anything correctly but you are violated beyond belief...why stresss on it ,,well if you have to ask then I guess you didn't loose very much.
What's the cop doing there? Is he the rapist? Does your wife look like Doug Steenland and the burglar left a sack of cash with about $20,000,000 in it? As for you, did you vote for this to happen? If so, was the said screwing consensual? I don't know about you, but as for Doug Steenland and I; our pants are coming off for anything more than about $10,000,000.00.
This metaphor confuses me.
Now, guess who the victim is going to be in this, not so metaphorical, example. ...
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 09-11-2014 at 05:11 AM.
09-11-2014 | 05:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,039
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From: 7ERB
As a person looking at the list, I think the seniority list should have been combined pre 9/11 and then post 9/11. The 2000-2001 DOH pilots, should have never been placed behind 2007/08 DOH pilots. Not only did the 2000/2001 get furloughed, their seniority was put behind a pilot that could have potentially started their flying career (after 9/11) on the eve of the 2000/2001 furloughs (mainline shrinks, DCI expands). Bar!!!!-->Notice this has nothing to do with N or S. Its just what I think would have been "just". Regardless, no effects on me. Just cautious for future.
The point is, some 2007/08 received a great position. Keep it. Great. Enjoy. But let us learn for the future. In a future merger with HA or AK, lets make sure to count the lucky 2007/08 pilots with the 2000 and 2001 hires, so that the the 2000/01 pilots dont get another hit in seniority.
Thats it. Nothing is fair in life, understood. But a little minority of our pilot group got "seniority" shafted, lets not let it happen again.
Good afternoon, Boys!
TEN
09-11-2014 | 05:18 AM
Runs with scissors
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From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
What was interesting (to me) in this A/E was the lack of backfilling in the wide body categories. 4 DTW 777 A's moved down to ATL 777, none were replaced in DTW, net loss of 4 777 Capts. Several 777 B's left for other places, none were replaced.
In the past 18mo. 17 ATL 777 A's have retired, this bid only replace 10 of them. Net loss 7.
One 747 A went to SEA A330 A, obviously they weren't going to replace him.
With the parking of 4 747's this year, and 4 more next year, it's going to get ugly, as the top comes down to meet at the A330. Luckily we have some coming, so there should be room, but I don't think we are getting 8 new A330's in the next 18 mo, are we?
In the past 18mo. 17 ATL 777 A's have retired, this bid only replace 10 of them. Net loss 7.
One 747 A went to SEA A330 A, obviously they weren't going to replace him.
With the parking of 4 747's this year, and 4 more next year, it's going to get ugly, as the top comes down to meet at the A330. Luckily we have some coming, so there should be room, but I don't think we are getting 8 new A330's in the next 18 mo, are we?
09-11-2014 | 05:52 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Ten,
You did not answer the questions.
How many positions should Delta pilots have lost to satisfy?
Was your story even true?
You made the statement, please explain your assertions.
On the other board the consensus seems to be that Delta pilots should have lost 2 positions and mid level NWA FO should be able to hold Captain. Others quickly pointed out that most 2007 Delta hires were displaced through two seats, unless they were already there by choice. The two mid to low seniority FO'S could hold Captain, but apparently not in the base and with the seniority they wanted.
The point was made that even by their own metrics, their outcome was better than they had expected at Northwest.
Still they want DOH. If they got that they got that they would want DOH plus an accelerator for attrition, without any regard for how much of NWA ' S network or fleet still exists.
In the absence of your response, we can assume you agree. Buy all the beer you want, it is your money.
I remained clear of that debate.
You did not answer the questions.
How many positions should Delta pilots have lost to satisfy?
Was your story even true?
You made the statement, please explain your assertions.
On the other board the consensus seems to be that Delta pilots should have lost 2 positions and mid level NWA FO should be able to hold Captain. Others quickly pointed out that most 2007 Delta hires were displaced through two seats, unless they were already there by choice. The two mid to low seniority FO'S could hold Captain, but apparently not in the base and with the seniority they wanted.
The point was made that even by their own metrics, their outcome was better than they had expected at Northwest.
Still they want DOH. If they got that they got that they would want DOH plus an accelerator for attrition, without any regard for how much of NWA ' S network or fleet still exists.
In the absence of your response, we can assume you agree. Buy all the beer you want, it is your money.
I remained clear of that debate.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 09-11-2014 at 06:30 AM.
09-11-2014 | 06:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,039
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From: 7ERB
Ten,
You did not answer the questions.
How many positions should Delta pilots have lost to satisfy?
Was your story even true?
You made the statement, please explain your assertions.
On the other board the consensus seems to be that Delta pilots should have lost 2 positions and mid level NWA FO should be able to hold Captain. Others quickly pointed out that most 2007 Delta hires were displaced through two seats, unless they were already there by choice. The two mid to low seniority FO'S could hold Captain, but apparently not in the base and with the seniority they wanted.
The point was made that even by their own metrics, their outcome was better than they had expected at Northwest.
Still they want DOH. If they got that they got that they would want DOH plus an accelerator for attrition, without any regard for how much of NWA ' S network or fleet still exists.
In the absence of your response, can we assume you agree?
You did not answer the questions.
How many positions should Delta pilots have lost to satisfy?
Was your story even true?
You made the statement, please explain your assertions.
On the other board the consensus seems to be that Delta pilots should have lost 2 positions and mid level NWA FO should be able to hold Captain. Others quickly pointed out that most 2007 Delta hires were displaced through two seats, unless they were already there by choice. The two mid to low seniority FO'S could hold Captain, but apparently not in the base and with the seniority they wanted.
The point was made that even by their own metrics, their outcome was better than they had expected at Northwest.
Still they want DOH. If they got that they got that they would want DOH plus an accelerator for attrition, without any regard for how much of NWA ' S network or fleet still exists.
In the absence of your response, can we assume you agree?
Bar,
I have no story. My concern is that going forward the 2000/2001 DOH pilots (group in the lucky 2007 hires) do not get put behind 2007 HA or AK pilots if a merger would happen.
Also, I am ok with the list, up to the point of 9/11 snap shot. In my opinion, pilots that got hired pre 9/11 should have never been put behind pilots who got hired after 9/11. It is my opinion. FTB, pointed the disparity out and I looked at the seniority list. This is not a N or S debate, this is a concern for the future. You and I are both Delta pilots, I am voicing my concern for a possible future merger.
By the way, I have no idea what the other board or positions are. Again, I am ok with the list pre 9/11. Post 9/11, from what I see, about 80 or so 2007 hires jumped ahead of DOH 2000/2001.
No story.
Have a great day. Dont let N or S bother you. We are all in the same boat. Lets protect it and enhance it when it comes to future mergers.
TEN
09-11-2014 | 06:13 AM
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2007
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Sorry I hit a nerve. You must have been one of the "lucky" 2007/2008 hires.
As a person looking at the list, I think the seniority list should have been combined pre 9/11 and then post 9/11. The 2000-2001 DOH pilots, should have never been placed behind 2007/08 DOH pilots. Not only did the 2000/2001 get furloughed, their seniority was put behind a pilot that could have potentially started their flying career (after 9/11) on the eve of the 2000/2001 furloughs (mainline shrinks, DCI expands). Bar!!!!-->Notice this has nothing to do with N or S. Its just what I think would have been "just". Regardless, no effects on me. Just cautious for future.
The point is, some 2007/08 received a great position. Keep it. Great. Enjoy. But let us learn for the future. In a future merger with HA or AK, lets make sure to count the lucky 2007/08 pilots with the 2000 and 2001 hires, so that the the 2000/01 pilots dont get another hit in seniority.
Thats it. Nothing is fair in life, understood. But a little minority of our pilot group got "seniority" shafted, lets not let it happen again.
Good afternoon, Boys!
TEN
As a person looking at the list, I think the seniority list should have been combined pre 9/11 and then post 9/11. The 2000-2001 DOH pilots, should have never been placed behind 2007/08 DOH pilots. Not only did the 2000/2001 get furloughed, their seniority was put behind a pilot that could have potentially started their flying career (after 9/11) on the eve of the 2000/2001 furloughs (mainline shrinks, DCI expands). Bar!!!!-->Notice this has nothing to do with N or S. Its just what I think would have been "just". Regardless, no effects on me. Just cautious for future.
The point is, some 2007/08 received a great position. Keep it. Great. Enjoy. But let us learn for the future. In a future merger with HA or AK, lets make sure to count the lucky 2007/08 pilots with the 2000 and 2001 hires, so that the the 2000/01 pilots dont get another hit in seniority.
Thats it. Nothing is fair in life, understood. But a little minority of our pilot group got "seniority" shafted, lets not let it happen again.
Good afternoon, Boys!
TEN
NW hired around 200 (+/- 100) in the 07-08 timeframe making the pre 9/11 hires only 200 or so from the bottom of their list. Delta hired 600-800 (+/-100) in that same timeframe.
Yes, I feel for the furloughed guys after 9/11, but that hardship and emotion doesn't change the fact that those guys were still at the very bottom of their list.
Couple that with the disappearing DC9s and 742s, and there wasn't much case for integrating them above the 07 south hires.
Hashed out and decided by an IMPARTIAL party.
09-11-2014 | 06:20 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2009
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From: 7ERB
I'm curious, how long were the pre 9/11 Northwest hires actually on the property pre-merger?
NW hired around 200 (+/- 100) in the 07-08 timeframe making the pre 9/11 hires only 200 or so from the bottom of their list. Delta hired 600-800 (+/-100) in that same timeframe.
Yes, I feel for the furloughed guys after 9/11, but that hardship and emotion doesn't change the fact that those guys were still at the very bottom of their list.
Couple that with the disappearing DC9s and 742s, and there wasn't much case for integrating them above the 07 south hires.
Hashed out and decided by an IMPARTIAL party.
NW hired around 200 (+/- 100) in the 07-08 timeframe making the pre 9/11 hires only 200 or so from the bottom of their list. Delta hired 600-800 (+/-100) in that same timeframe.
Yes, I feel for the furloughed guys after 9/11, but that hardship and emotion doesn't change the fact that those guys were still at the very bottom of their list.
Couple that with the disappearing DC9s and 742s, and there wasn't much case for integrating them above the 07 south hires.
Hashed out and decided by an IMPARTIAL party.
My concern is a future merger with HA. This is why I bring this up. HA has Captains hired in the late 2000s. I bring this 2000/2001 behind 2007/2008 metric up so that the minority do not get forgotten again.
TEN
09-11-2014 | 06:22 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,457
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From: LAX ERA
Wow, the SLI again.......guess things must be going ok around here if this is all there is to talk about.
The list was about as good as we were going to get....on day one. No one's life changed much (the goal) but over time we are seeing some of the flaws. The tweak that was needed was the dynamic list that the NWA Blue guy put forward IMHO. Unfortunately it didn't satisfy the NWA Greens and was way to radical for the South guys.
Maybe next time with the next merger........especially if the demographics are way off (like the E vs W). What made ours work is our demographics weren't that far off (N slightly older that S).
But, no one has come up with a good answer of what to do if we (a large international carrier) merges with a small domestic/narrowbody only carrier. To my knowledge no one has figured that one out yet.
Ferd
The list was about as good as we were going to get....on day one. No one's life changed much (the goal) but over time we are seeing some of the flaws. The tweak that was needed was the dynamic list that the NWA Blue guy put forward IMHO. Unfortunately it didn't satisfy the NWA Greens and was way to radical for the South guys.
Maybe next time with the next merger........especially if the demographics are way off (like the E vs W). What made ours work is our demographics weren't that far off (N slightly older that S).
But, no one has come up with a good answer of what to do if we (a large international carrier) merges with a small domestic/narrowbody only carrier. To my knowledge no one has figured that one out yet.
Ferd
09-11-2014 | 06:22 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,206
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From: DAL FO
I'm curious, how long were the pre 9/11 Northwest hires actually on the property pre-merger?
NW hired around 200 (+/- 100) in the 07-08 timeframe making the pre 9/11 hires only 200 or so from the bottom of their list. Delta hired 600-800 (+/-100) in that same timeframe.
Yes, I feel for the furloughed guys after 9/11, but that hardship and emotion doesn't change the fact that those guys were still at the very bottom of their list.
Couple that with the disappearing DC9s and 742s, and there wasn't much case for integrating them above the 07 south hires.
Hashed out and decided by an IMPARTIAL party.
NW hired around 200 (+/- 100) in the 07-08 timeframe making the pre 9/11 hires only 200 or so from the bottom of their list. Delta hired 600-800 (+/-100) in that same timeframe.
Yes, I feel for the furloughed guys after 9/11, but that hardship and emotion doesn't change the fact that those guys were still at the very bottom of their list.
Couple that with the disappearing DC9s and 742s, and there wasn't much case for integrating them above the 07 south hires.
Hashed out and decided by an IMPARTIAL party.
At the risk of being accused a SPAMMER (T?) I'm going to repost this here for better visibility:
Do you Call to Actions. There are TWO of them. The first is another (still important) Deny NAI call, and the second has to do with the ExIM bank. We all crow about the injustices of this industry, well here's a chance to take a minute of your time (literally) to do something about it:
CLICK HERE, SERIOUSLY YOU DON'T HAVE 1 MINUTE?
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