Originally Posted by Timbo

Weren't both of the A/F copilots Ab Initio types? I think the article said so, both were hired with little time (called "Company Babies") and then went to flying long haul International, where you don't get much stick time, ever.

Originally Posted by bohicagain

I know I am going to get crapped on for this but had Airbus had a normal yolk the Pilot in the left seat would have seen the FO pull back and hold the yolk so when he took the controls he would have seen the other guy contradict his inputs and said something. That might have brought the nose down to get airflow over the wings but by both pilot operating the controls in opposite directions the airplane had no real direction in which to go.

Originally Posted by index

No, that's absolutely not what I'm saying. I never suggested ALPA should should have "advocated for their firing." Where did you dream up that nonsense? You're trying to put words in my mouth to make your point. Fail on your part.

Originally Posted by Timbo

Weren't both of the A/F copilots Ab Initio types? I think the article said so, both were hired with little time (called "Company Babies") and then went to flying long haul International, where you don't get much stick time, ever.

Originally Posted by index

Bar,

Your "we hire experienced pilots" comment is incredibly arrogant. I'm astonished that you could say something so stupid. I guess since you're "experienced" that you don't make mistakes. Must be nice to be perfect.

While you boast about DAL hiring "experienced" pilots, your beloved union was against having the 1500 hour/ATP requirement applied to current 121 pilots who did not meet the new requirements.

ALPA Fastread, May 3, 2012 said this:

"ALPA’s comments support the NPRM, but they also call on the agency to prescribe a regulatory path that will permit non-ATP certificated pilots who presently fly for a Part 121 carrier to obtain the ATP certificate, and type rating for the aircraft that they operate, without creating a break in employment or an undue burden for them or their employers."

So much for supporting "experience." But hey, let's not create an "undue burden" on management. To hell with safety. And let's "protect" low time pilots to not create an "undue burden" on them. What about the safety of the traveling public? What happened to "one level of safety"? Do you not see the hypocrisy?

If ALPA didn't have the inherent conflict of interest in trying to represent both mainline and regional pilots one wonders whether the ALPA would've supported such a carveout. Just what would happen if commuter airlines couldn't staff their airlines with "experienced" pilots. Just where would that flying go???? Hmmmmm? The MAJORS, that's where.

Originally Posted by Admin Manual Training Section

Ab Initio Training Programs and Mentoring

1. Airline pilots qualified by any ab initio training program must meet the competencies and flight proficiencies identified in this section for first officer candidates.

2. ALPA supports ab initio training programs that, when completed, result in the candidate being issued an Airline Transport Pilot certificate (ATP).

3. An ab initio program that results in the candidate being issued an aircraft type rating should establish foundational experience that ensures competency to pilot-in-command standards for safely operating the aircraft in air carrier operations.

4. Any ab initio training program should produce a professional airline pilot with the knowledge, skills, and airmanship that will provide a solid base for gaining the necessary experience prior to upgrade to pilot in command.

5. To build skills and experience, all required competencies and flight proficiencies needed to be a competent airline pilot, including decision making and airmanship, should be introduced early in the training program through significant levels of integrated academic and flight training sessions.

6. ALPA supports ab initio training programs that include a significant amount of actual flight time in an airplane operated in the National Airspace System including a significant amount of solo and actual IMC flight time necessary to develop sufficient aeronautical skills.

7. A quality ab initio training programs contain the following characteristics:

a. A comprehensive pilot selection process that includes appropriate security background checks.

b. Consider candidates who have completed, or are concurrently completing, higher education programs such as an ab initio training program that is affiliated with accredited that demonstrate the motivation to study and the ability to acquire more knowledge needed to synthesize skills learned during training and throughout an airline career.

c. Employ well-trained and standardized instructors to train different phases of instruction. For example, those providing primary training should be certified flight instructors and those providing crew-based training should be line qualified and current in the aircraft in which the training is being provided.

d. Conduct regular instructor training and standardization programs that include regular line operation familiarity programs and a quality assurance program that ensures the suitability of instructors to train candidates.

e. Use flight simulation training devices appropriate for obtaining the required aeronautical proficiency, competence in aeronautical tasks, and cognitive skills. Full-motion flight simulation should be used during flight training to ensure a solid foundation of aeronautical abilities, as well as skills specific to the aircraft.

8. Formal and informal mentoring programs should be part of any ab-initio training program. ALPA supports mentoring for all first officers, and supports a robust training curriculum for mentor Captains.

9. Any ab initio program must take the pilot candidate through the licenses and qualifications defined in FAR part 61 in order to provide foundational flight experience in single engine, complex, and multi-engine aircraft, visual and instrument meteorological conditions. Certificates required should include the private and commercial as well as multi-engine and instrument ratings, providing the prerequisites for issuance of the ATP certificate.

10. Initial Operating Experience (OE) is not flight training but rather is intended to consolidate trained competencies into regular line flight operations after the flight training program is completed. OE should not be used for “on-the-job training” or aeronautical flight training during air carrier revenue operations. A candidate qualified through an ab initio program should not require substantially more OE after completing flight training when compared to other pilots who were not qualified through an ab-initio flight program.

11. ALPA does not support the Multi-crew Pilots License (MPL) as defined by ICAO because it does not require the foundational flight experience described in 9 (above).

Originally Posted by ShyGuy

How do you define "experienced"?

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Originally Posted by Admin Manual Training Section

Ab Initio Training Programs and Mentoring

1. Airline pilots qualified by any ab initio training program must meet the competencies and flight proficiencies identified in this section for first officer candidates.

2. ALPA supports ab initio training programs that, when completed, result in the candidate being issued an Airline Transport Pilot certificate (ATP).

3. An ab initio program that results in the candidate being issued an aircraft type rating should establish foundational experience that ensures competency to pilot-in-command standards for safely operating the aircraft in air carrier operations.

4. Any ab initio training program should produce a professional airline pilot with the knowledge, skills, and airmanship that will provide a solid base for gaining the necessary experience prior to upgrade to pilot in command.

5. To build skills and experience, all required competencies and flight proficiencies needed to be a competent airline pilot, including decision making and airmanship, should be introduced early in the training program through significant levels of integrated academic and flight training sessions.

6. ALPA supports ab initio training programs that include a significant amount of actual flight time in an airplane operated in the National Airspace System including a significant amount of solo and actual IMC flight time necessary to develop sufficient aeronautical skills.

7. A quality ab initio training programs contain the following characteristics:

a. A comprehensive pilot selection process that includes appropriate security background checks.

b. Consider candidates who have completed, or are concurrently completing, higher education programs such as an ab initio training program that is affiliated with accredited that demonstrate the motivation to study and the ability to acquire more knowledge needed to synthesize skills learned during training and throughout an airline career.

c. Employ well-trained and standardized instructors to train different phases of instruction. For example, those providing primary training should be certified flight instructors and those providing crew-based training should be line qualified and current in the aircraft in which the training is being provided.

d. Conduct regular instructor training and standardization programs that include regular line operation familiarity programs and a quality assurance program that ensures the suitability of instructors to train candidates.

e. Use flight simulation training devices appropriate for obtaining the required aeronautical proficiency, competence in aeronautical tasks, and cognitive skills. Full-motion flight simulation should be used during flight training to ensure a solid foundation of aeronautical abilities, as well as skills specific to the aircraft.

8. Formal and informal mentoring programs should be part of any ab-initio training program. ALPA supports mentoring for all first officers, and supports a robust training curriculum for mentor Captains.

9. Any ab initio program must take the pilot candidate through the licenses and qualifications defined in FAR part 61 in order to provide foundational flight experience in single engine, complex, and multi-engine aircraft, visual and instrument meteorological conditions. Certificates required should include the private and commercial as well as multi-engine and instrument ratings, providing the prerequisites for issuance of the ATP certificate.

10. Initial Operating Experience (OE) is not flight training but rather is intended to consolidate trained competencies into regular line flight operations after the flight training program is completed. OE should not be used for “on-the-job training” or aeronautical flight training during air carrier revenue operations. A candidate qualified through an ab initio program should not require substantially more OE after completing flight training when compared to other pilots who were not qualified through an ab-initio flight program.

11. ALPA does not support the Multi-crew Pilots License (MPL) as defined by ICAO because it does not require the foundational flight experience described in 9 (above).

Originally Posted by RockyBoy

While it may add a slight bit of SA, I would add a couple things here.

First, in a situation like the AF guys were in the last thing I would do is look over and "see" what the guy is doing with his yoke (or control wheel). I think most of us would be looking at the attitude indicator or other instruments rather than glancing over at a control wheel. If you really wanted to, in a bus you can see what the other guy is doing with the stick.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

You'd be amazed how much SA you have what the other guy is doing after just a bit of time on fifi. Very responsive to handfly, too.

That being said, you're senior to me... it sucks, I hate it and you will, too.

Originally Posted by buzzpat

Chuckle. Does the little fifi side stick thingy smack you in the giblets when the other guy pulls it full aft? That's how I know.