|
|
Originally Posted by DeadHead
(Post 1848350)
I never really understand how the bow wave worked. When would the extra accumulated timed be paid out? Or was it just credited out as extra vacation time when a pilot had it scheduled?
Most 'good' lines (on the 727) were either three 4 day trips, or four 3 day trips, same trip, going out on the same day, all month. Either way, you were only flying 12 days a month and getting 75 hours. BUT, you could still pick up from open time, up to 75+ the value of your shortest trip prior to the 20th or something like that. That's usually how you got some bow wave going, which you used to push time into your next 68hr. month, or you borrowed from the bank to fill up, or you just lived on 68hrs. and enjoyed your time off. Thus the old joke about, "You mean I have to fly to Rome EVERY Tuesday??!" :eek: And many guys would whine if the lines weren't "Pure". Pure was; same trip, same days, every week. That's how you could tell who was senior. The guys you'd see signing in on Friday all month were the most junior of course, working every weekend, all month, and the guys who signed in on Tuesday for a 3 day were most senior. Flying 3 on, 4 off, on Tuesday, was what we all aspired to. And with one week of vacation, you were smart to bid a line where it would be placed between two 4 day trips, touching each, you could drop 8 days of flying, and get 3 weeks off for one week of vacation. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1848289)
Back in the time before time, we had a 75 hour cap. You might fly over 75 hours, but you would only be paid 75 hours. The extra time would be put into a 'bow wave' towards your next month's total time. The ONLY way you could be paid more than 75 hours was if you flew 'Overtime' i.e. a green slip.
BUT, before any green slip pay kicked in, you first had to reach the 75 hours, that was the trigger for overtime pay. Now, with PBS and variable ALV's every month, they decided to tie GS pay to the ALV as the trigger. You first have to fly to the ALV before GS pay kicks in. I wish we would go back to the old 75hr. Cap and bow wave, and trips touching for vacation, and free health care, and and and... But the company is only making $4.5 Billion per year, there's just no way they can afford that with oil at 10 year lows... That would be spun by some as a paycut. Talk amongst yourselves. |
I'm interested in this ground pay concept.
I need to look more at what DALPA put out on it (so this has nothing to do with that) but IF it is what I think it is and it only pays if you're working then it might be a win win for the airline and pilots who work normal schedules. |
Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez
(Post 1848418)
That would be spun by some as a paycut. Talk amongst yourselves.
We are now averaging 92? Compared to 75? Yeah, there would be much crying if we went back to 75! Of course if we could at the same time get our pay rates back to 2004 adjusted for inflation, that would soften the blow! BUT...think of the upward progression that would be required if every wide body Captain was only flying 75 instead of 93! That's how you get "More Money, More Time Off", by flying LESS, not more. I happen to have a calculator right next to me, here's the quick math on that: For every 100 wide body pilots flying 93 hours every month, it would require 24 more pilots (124 total) to fly the same time at 75 hours every month. You could say we are now 24% MORE PRODUCTIVE then we were under the old 75hr. cap rules. Wonder why you've been stagnated for 10 years? All that extra flying every month thanks to PBS, and age 65 together, that's why. |
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 1848163)
I don't mean to get in the middle of your debate, it's interesting and informative. But...............I thought Delta leased the tanker under the Jones Act (?) in order to ship (Bakken) crude between New Orleans and Trainor?
Denny |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1848407)
Not quite. Bow wave and Bank were two different things.
Bow Wave automatically went towards you filling up in the next month, ie. if you had a 3hr. bow wave, and your line next month was 72, the 3 hour bow wave would spill forward to fill you up. Bank was if you wanted to 'save' that 3 hours for a rainy day some months into the future. But you had to elect to deposit it into your bank, which I think maxed out at +60 hours. Anything above that had to continue as a bow wave. You could also go negative bank. If you wanted to fill up say a 68hr. month (to 75) you could borrow (up to 20 hours) from the bank to fill up. If in later months you developed a bow wave, the first 5 hours of it was automatically used to pay back your negative bank. There was also a 'spill back' provision, where if you had a short month, you could take some time out of your next month's line and spill it back to fill up (to 75) the previous month. OR...you could take some time out of your positive bank and use that to fill up. The typical strategy was to fill your bank up before you bid up to a higher paying seat, then take some out every month to fill up, at the higher rates. The bow wave strategy was used to push time forward into the choice summer months, drop your trips and stay home, while your bow wave got you paid. Between 60 hour banks, huge bow waves, and dropping any trips that touched your vacation months, you could go all summer without flying a trip, if you worked it right, and many did. When I was hired in 1985, they had not hired since 1981, so most of the flight engineers had huge bow waves (200 hours), but the company was short of pilots so they 'froze' their bow waves, ie. they wouldn't let them use them to drop trips! They were in contract negotiations when I interviewed, one of the big sticking points was the B Scale. American Airlines had just started that nonsense in 1984, so in typical "Me Too" fashion, all the other airlines wanted to have one... "To Compete with American" Of course everyone you spoke with at the interview had to ask you how you would feel if you were put on a B Scale. They even had pay charts they showed us, "Here's what your pay rates might be, are you OK with that?" :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 1848414)
Timbo,
To clarify, the GS trigger is ALV or 75 hours, whichever is lower. That means that the GS trigger (which is always listed in your time card) is always in a range of 72-75 hours. Also, as you no doubt know, all training, vacation, etc applies to the GS trigger. This is all an improvement resulting from a side letter a few years ago. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1848423)
Oh absolutely it would be today. I've already heard the b!tching from the senior 777 F/O's and LCA's about the "pay cut" they took with the new FAR 117. They can -only- fly 100 hours in 28 days now! Damned ALPA!
We are now averaging 92? Compared to 75? Yeah, there would be much crying if we went back to 75! Of course if we could at the same time get our pay rates back to 2004 adjusted for inflation, that would soften the blow! BUT...think of the upward progression that would be required if every wide body Captain was only flying 75 instead of 93! That's how you get "More Money, More Time Off", by flying LESS, not more. I happen to have a calculator right next to me, here's the quick math on that: For every 100 wide body pilots flying 93 hours every month, it would require 24 more pilots (124 total) to fly the same time at 75 hours every month. You could say we are now 24% MORE PRODUCTIVE then we were under the old 75hr. cap rules. Wonder why you've been stagnated for 10 years? All that extra flying every month thanks to PBS, and age 65 together, that's why. I've gotten to point in my life where I look at time moreso than money. Ultimately our income is a function of pay rates and time away. I think the company save a lot of money by having us pick up extra time every month while keeping staffing tight. The transpose to that is hiring extra pilots, which is much costlier than just paying out more credit every month. We staff for the summer flying, but hire for the year. Everyone is different and has their own opinion on the subject, but I look a 70-75 hours mark when deciding on contracts. Anything above that is a bonus, but ultimately hourly rates will dictate the appeal. Everything else that helps the company manage open time is a concession the way I see it. (essentially incentivizes us to work more, so the company can staff less) I'll pre-defend my point here before being labeled a hypocrite....I'm in favor of anything picked up above the GS trigger to pay our premium because it more costly to the company and more beneficial to the pilot group. The company will staff accordingly to offset a decrease in their need to pay out premium pay to pilots. |
Originally Posted by OldFlyGuy
(Post 1848426)
Brings back memories Timbo. I was hired here and AMR in 85. I recall an exchange at one of the interviews. InterviewingDude asks what if he doesn't sign the acknowledgement of the proposed crappy pay rates. Co. Dude says "then the interview is over." Older Dudes were completely out of touch except for "don't cut MY pay." Even 2 years later. When I was leaving DC-8 engineer for 737 right seat and about to finish 2nd year a Captain asked me what I was gonna do with the "big 3rd year raise." I told him 3rd year rate plus the right seat worked out to $300 a month, and what would he suggest? Lets all try to never be that out of touch. OFG
As I was sitting in the waiting room, an AA Captain snatched my paper out of my hand to read it. He threw it back at me and said, "Don't sign that! I would NEVER sign that!" I wanted to say, "It's YOUR FAULT I HAVE TO SIGN IT, if I want the job!" (moron) but I kept my mouth shut. They had that never ending B scale, which in addition to pay cuts, also cut the vacation and lots of other stuff for their B scale guys, where as Delta's only touched pay, and only for 5 years. In hind sight, I probably should have taken the job at AA, vs. Delta. I'd still have a BOS base, a MIA base, still be a 777 Captain and I'd still have my retirement. Oh well, hind sight is always 20-20. :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1848435)
Actually Herk, I don't know that, because I've never paid any attention to what triggers a GS, because I've never put in for one, and in 29+ years never flown one.
On the other hand, a year ago when I was flying ATL 7ERB I picked up a GS...one leg to JAX, layover 11 hours, one leg home. I hardly realized that I was gone at all, and I got an extra 21 hours pay. I spend a lot more time at home than most commuters ever do, even with the occasional GS. Then there is the strategy of bidding reserve and then putting in GS. It only really works if you have severe undermanning and know that you can get multiple GS. Because of the payback day provision, I have met guys doing the "Rolling Thunder" who fly 70 hours and get paid twice that! Of course you have to have pretty much infinite schedule flexibility at home, which I don't have! |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:14 AM. |
|
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands