sinca3

I agree, but you still haven't given an answer to DALPA getting mgmnt to park RJ's. You are redirecting our questions taking us off point, which is everyones complaint with the communications from ALPA. Answer the question!!
How did DALPA get RJ's parked? I know they helped by alowing a higher ALV. I understand that b/c of this the company remained within the contractual limits and still does. I see that those hours are now flown by mainline a/c and pilots. Answer the question!!
How did DALPA get RJ's parked?

DAL 88 Driver

Funny... Everyone else's arguments are "emotional". The only "rational" argument is yours. You don't think two people can see things differently and both can still be rational?

We took a 42% pay cut, lost our pension, and had thousands of our jobs outsourced. I know you get tired of hearing about that, but it is reality. When I see an argument that touts a 17% pay rate increase over a several year period... barely keeping up with inflation over our bankruptcy/emergency pay rates... I have to question whether the person making that argument is being rational. Being happy with that result sounds more or less emotional to me... maybe even ostrich-like.

Now, I know... we did better than XYZ pilot group, blah, blah, blah. I see that as kind of like saying, "Well, we lost the football game by 40 points. But look how great we did! XYZ lost the game by 60 points!"

acl65pilot

Exactly.
He is framing his argument in a macro context, which needs to be looked at. What I disagree with is this:
Slow has stated that not all airlines are equal. We do not have the same earning potential as he pointed out about a month ago with an argument I was making. He is correct to a point. So with using his argument, if we are in a better position to make money wouldn't it be easy to go the next logical step and expect us to be compensated better than our counterparts?

It does to me. Point is, that yes, when LOA 46 and 51 were ratified we were way above the rest of the filed, but as it stands now, we are middle of the pack and actually at the lower end of the total cost per pilot spectrum, but our company is the largest airline, with the greatest potential for revenue and profit generation. How did they get there?
Well, we had no small part in allowing the wheels of their plan to turn without hindering their time line. We helped solve operational and integration issues to help stay on the time line. That alone should be worth its weight in gold as it proves the worth of our management team.

People are frustrated for many reasons. The one I see over and over is that we are asked, and we perform, without fail. We have helped create an airline with unparalleled potential, so it realy rubs the majority of the group to see their bargaining agent; DALPA, managing exceptions with telling us our cost need to be in line with other airlines that do not have the mechanisms in place that we do.

sevenfiveseven

Sorry - yes. Works great. Go to the DALPA forum, computer section to get all the gouge.

acl65pilot

My only and I mean only issue with journey is that if there are more flight that fit in there little screen, I cannot get it to scroll down!

Bucking Bar

ACL65,

I'll go ahead and step on the land mine here.

Contract 2000, along with other profligate programs put Delta into bankruptcy. Leo Mullin and Fred Reid's idea that they could use Delta's balance sheet to run US Air and American into bankruptcy first was pure folly.

Back in early 2000 a very dear friend who served as a prior VP of Flight Ops and L1011 manager told me while walking through his North Georgia estate, almost to the month when Delta would go into bankruptcy. While things did change on both sides of his analysis, he hit the target within 45 days with his astonishingly accurate prognostication.

While I do believe we overdo the economic analysis at the cost of unity, I am VERY GLAD that Moak and our MEC are more conservative and thoughtful than I perceive Giambusso was. (I don't know Giambusso, only what I heard) But, it is hard to argue with the results that Moak and the MEC have achieved.

I was a very frequent critic of the policies that I believed compromised growth and job security. If we make it through this downturn without furloughs then I've really got to hand it to our team that led us through these tumultuous times and actually scored some pay increases while keeping everyone working (both in Management and the MEC).

Pineapple Guy

OK, I'll bite. First, was that "very dear friend" SG? Second, on what basis did he make his charges? C2K wasn't even signed until 6/21/01, roughly 15 months after his prediction, at least according to your time line.

acl65pilot

As you know I agree with much of what you state. My issue is with the communication aspect. Pilots want to be told why, not that they are wrong. Educate the group without a tone of superiority. Have humility in your job as a union leader, or a company leader.

I see humility among many of the guys that run flight ops. I see humility with many of the guys that do union work. The problem is that within our union the ones that are the most visible are the ones that seem to have the strongest disdain for the line pilots perspective.
My suggestion is to open up communication. Any movement in that direction will be noticed by many. Bring back the White Papers, welcome differing opinions in public. Let the pilots make their own minds up.

The current administration is very pragmatic. They have a very clear sight picture of how they think things will go. A few pages ago, I have my analysis of what I have determined to be the game plan. Right or wrong, it has not been refuted. We are in the time frame of the game plan to not lose ground nor make substantial ground while the company is building its Empire. Once that happens, I get the impression from multiple sources that RA and co know it will be payback time.

I give plenty of credit to this MEC. They have done a supurb job with this merger. Part of our issue has kept it civil. Keeping communique's to a minimum, killing the bad blood, and reporting what is only necessary has in effect kept the normal disdain from mergers dormant. I see that. I know it is part of the plan, but by god it is high time to start a PR campaign.

I am staunchly pro ALPA at Delta. There are bad parts about it. People that need to go, but there is such a resource there for the line pilot. Problem is they just do not know about it. DALPA needs to resell themselves to the pilots. Show how deep they are, convince them that there is value in it.

In the end, who gets credit for no furloughs can be debated until the ends of the earth. There are many reasons for it imo. Either way, people kept their jobs, got a pay rate at 140 a barrel oil, and have a decent probability of a good decade ahead of them.
Many squawked when we got the JPWA that the raises were not enough, and the fact is that they were not for where we were, but as Lee points out they are sustainable. He is true to his goals and bullet points. That takes a lot of courage when under fire. I credit the MEC for that. (we could argue the cosign of the fact that no one else has taken pay cuts, but we will save that for a post or two down the road )

Slow, how is that for not being Anti-DALPA and Lee?

Sink r8

+1 on the MEC's actions. They've served the group as well as anyone could expect, and better than any administration before.

The only problem is with their approach to marketing their effort, and making the group comfortable with their actions. Doing the right thing is fine, but it's not enough if you can't convincingly explain why it's the right thing.

After all, it is our job as members to watch the MEC in order to give them guidance, and ensure they're not falling too much in love with their ideas, or with their status as "insiders".

The problem as it stands now is that we have reasonably good communciations after the fact when some agreement occurs (which enrages a number of us that don't feel they were sufficiently polled), but that these communications fall short in terms of providing a thorough background. When we try to fill in the blanks, i.e. via the forum, we run in a constant conflict between those who see evil in all things, and those within ALPA who are tired of having their motives questioned, but are not capable of assessing their own communciation skills, and as a result end up dispensing sarcasm rather than clear answers.

I'd just like to be able to support the efforts of the MEC without feeling like I'm accidentally supporting the more... secretive and sarcastic manifestations thereof.

forgot to bid

+1 ACL



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