Originally Posted by notEnuf

No, the process is the problem and has been for the industry forever. The unity is is not the issue. Management knows they benefit from the process and are not motivated to change it but incentivized to lengthen it. If any other supplier was an exclusive provider there would be resources and efforts made to get a deal done. Our process while being bound by the RLA doesn't have to be punitive. This needs to change. An amendment that only lasts four years in the face of regulatory structure that require it applies regardless of timeline is a boat anchor. The only way to fix this is to provide a means for wage growth for the duration of the contract's applicable period. Given that there's no situation that will ever allow a withdrawal of service upon the self imposed contractual limit on wage progression, there is no reason to limit wage growth for a specific 4 year period. The period beyond agreed upon wage tables needs to be addressed. The fact that contracts take years has nothing to do with the union but rather the incentive for management to not make a deal until motivated to do so. No other business contract takes this long to amend without an escalator clause or bridge provision to address real world costs during a lack of agreement.

In this environment it would be more beneficial to TA everything and throw it against the wall and see what sticks. Unity is only truly revealed when the agreement is shown to be unacceptable. I thought we learned this lesson. All the internal bickering stops when the true nature of managements intent is revealed. This is why they fight for secrecy surrounding negotiations. Bad morale is bad for business so it's been removed as a tool for the union. If we had leadership that was willing to do EVERYTHING legally within their power to exert pressure we would have a real unity. This period beyond the amendable date is akin to indentured servitude.

Originally Posted by Fourpaw

Does anyone know if the flight time under icrew>block hours flown, is the total time in aircraft or just a 12 month look back?

I’m trying to look for a way to review flights times year by year. Thanks.

Originally Posted by theUpsideDown

AT the risk of sounded smarmy, if we had it your way weve have to finsih contract negotiations in may of 2020. Sometimes the RLA helps us, this isnt the first time for pilots.

You're having a long discussion about the way things should be, but arent. I had those discussions more than a decade ago when i was first learning about the RLA 3 or 4 years into my career. Im for moving us out of the rla, and all the risk that entails, but its not going to happen. Even if you really really want it and write four paragraphs about it. The same rules that got united, delta, great pay is the same system we have today. If every pilot acts unified, as ive seen work, the process can be "quick" and direct.

If every pilot informationally pickets that has a day off (even if it was close). If every pilot stops by the CPs office who is at work and says, "let the company know im sick of this crap. My mec knows what i want, get figured out how to pay for it " this is over. Management knows were still fairly divided on what we want.

Originally Posted by notEnuf

Since this is now a measuring contest... 25 years (2+ decades) 3 airlines, and a strike. We need to be business like in our PWA. A business contract for ongoing services or goods has escalations built in. This only changes as the parties agree. I will not vote for any PWA that doesn't address this. Your unity only shows in metrics (that's all they care about) when flights get delayed or uncovered. Those situations are always manipulated to blame ALPA and threaten sanctions. You blame the populous without understanding their true displeasure. Show me a real tactic and I'll show you unity. CPs don't have anything to do with it nor do picket lines if flights are on time.

Originally Posted by theUpsideDown

Well, wasnt meant to be a measuring contest. in more than15 years and +3 airlines ive gone from where you are at now and come to different conclusions after experience and information. Im not here to dither around nor to hint at illegal job actions. I get it, on some level you are venting.

To those reading this on the fence. The rules are what the rules are. We can get most of what we want from the company if we operate with a single voice, and the company makes profit again. Personally Im with the MEC, even if it isnt a perfect expression of what I want. Everyone here needs to come to a pragmatic approval of our bargaining position and express that to CPs. I dont agree that the feedback is ignored.

Originally Posted by notEnuf

Explain to me how we benefit from not having a widely accepted business practice of a bridge process which escalates price based on economic and market metrics. The acceptance of an agreement that governs perpetually without processes to adjust is moronic. Arcane policies and negotiations need to be challenged. We are wound up in hindsight and tradition while we dig a deeper hole. This may come across as venting but the union needs some foresight.

Originally Posted by notEnuf

Explain to me how we benefit from not having a widely accepted business practice of a bridge process which escalates price based on economic and market metrics. The acceptance of an agreement that governs perpetually without processes to adjust is moronic. Arcane policies and negotiations need to be challenged. We are wound up in hindsight and tradition while we dig a deeper hole. This may come across as venting but the union needs some foresight. The fact that union members call doing their jobs cautiously and correctly a job action is the problem. If there is any change, whatever the real reason, we will be blamed for job actions. I'm not advocating anything other than when we "run a little hot" or when our management says to "slow down the operation" or when they request patience because of "generational turnover" for my department as well as others that we take them at their word. Here's some examples: I made the newb ground crew move a baggage cart out of the safety zone. It took several minutes because they had no idea why I stopped or that it was even a problem. Another time recently I made an ALA go get a new wireless headset because I couldn't hear him and refused to use hand signals on an icy snow covered ramp in blowing snow. Were either of those job actions? We were late both times. There are countless other stories. We will let the process play out at the traditional pace this time because we must, but there will be no agreement if this isn't addressed for the next amendment. You can choose to repeat past flaws, I will not.

So make an argument for how your unity should be demonstrated or against an escalator clause. I'd love to hear both.

Originally Posted by Fourpaw

Does anyone know if the flight time under icrew>block hours flown, is the total time in aircraft or just a 12 month look back?

I’m trying to look for a way to review flights times year by year. Thanks.

Originally Posted by crewdawg

Total block time in the aircraft, they'll stay and continue to accumulate over your career. It does have 6 month look back and year to date lines at the bottom, so you'd have to look at those at the appropriate times. I think the year-to-date and past 6 months are counting all of the trips for the current month, even if you haven't flown it yet. I'm not sure if there a way to get year by year breakdowns.

Originally Posted by theUpsideDown

Once again, you give a faulty premise. Ours is not to change the RLA. If youd like to change it in the future, wave your magic wand. At this moment congress passes the omnibus spending package once a year and one other bill every other year on partisan lines. If you had a magic wand in 2019, wed/'d have been finishing up our negotiations in the middle of 2020, wow that would have sucked. Of course if you had a magic wand you could probably get rid of covid AND made EB sign whatever deal you wanted, so in that circumstance im onboard.

Ive read it stated many times that airlines in america are more volitile a business cycle than US tech. I do agree with that characterization. Moving us to the NRLA may give us the ability to end the contract on a set date. As ive said, im willing to take the risk, but i dont know if itll be better, but it isnt going to happen until congress "works' again some decade from now. The company isnt going to negotiate something to sweep away the force and effect of the RLA. Even if they thought they could honk us with it, and wanted to do it, i dont know the NMB would allow it. Middle ground Put a COLA adjustment at 3% or CPI whichever is greater in the contract if you like, but your going to have to get the other side to sign it. Present your plan to the MEC.

You want to scream at clouds? Fine, but you will do so without my attention. We're on the same side, just attacking from different angle, try to remember that.