StickPig

Thats kinda what I was referring to. Should absolutely be tied to main negotiations. I’ve also flown with several “old hats” if you will that only care about the money. I just got here, and while I’m technically still in the “just happy to be here,” phase, the part of me that’s been part of ALPA a long time understands there are a lot of improvements that can be made outside of the dollars.

sailingfun

I suspect the union looked at the recruiting numbers. Delta has no issues attracting qualified applicants. This whole discussion reminds me off when the company offered to bring the 757 up to 7ER pay without us asking. The usual suspects ran around with their hair on fire calling it a concession!

notEnuf

Every side deal relieves pressure to make the main deal. I generally think there should be no side deals during section 6, but the reality is that we are in perpetual negotiations. And if this frees the committees to move on the major stuff, fine. We still haven't exchanged openers on the big stuff via term sheets, just conceptual visions. Get the payrates on the table and get the big QOL stuff on the table. This tradition until the end to discuss them is crap.

theUpsideDown

You arent gonna bang your hand on the table and demand anything happen. The only way you're going to talk rates and schedule first is if you agree you want no changes to previous sections.

Youre kind of at that frustration level people get to that want to know more. Usually a patient volunteer can let you tell them how it "should be" and just give you the pros and cons. Truth is, until you volunteer and see the daily back and forths you dont really grok the RLA negotiating concept. Also, at some point, pilots of all ages and experience levels should have some concept of what a negotiation is vs a stickup.

sailingfun

We did present terms sheets to the company in Dec of 2020 on the money sections. It would be interesting to see a comparison to what we present in round two. I know however they want to bury those round one proposals in a very deep hole.

FangsF15

Highly recommend the “Engage” Podcast put out by the MEC, especially episodes 2 & 3 where they talk negotiations. It is very illuminating regarding the process as well as the current state of negotiations. There is a little propaganda to sift through, but it’s worth your time to listen on the drive to work.

One of the big take away us is to make sure you’re getting your information through your reps, or directly from the negotiating committee. Any rumors that are on social media do not come from them.One of the big take away us is to make sure you’re getting your information through your reps, or directly from the negotiating committee. Any rumors that are on social media do not come from them.

notEnuf

I've been through the process through it's conclusion. I know how it works. I am saying the tradition set by the industry past, the NMB and the RLA has structure that is unnecessary in the modern age of communication. The entire PWA can be open and the NMB can monitor the flow remotely. No other contract Delta chooses to enter takes years to negotiate. The monster AMEX deal took less than a month. The "tradition" is a boat anchor we seem to just accept along with all the other dinosaurs that the union sees as required.

theUpsideDown

Well we are under the RLA so we are legally obligated to have a process. The boat anchor is not the process, its lack of unity. If the picketing was every single pilot not workijg that day this would be a 6month process.

The company is benefitted by the contract taking forever. Making pilots give a **** is like herding cats. If every pilot waited in a line outside the CPs office like the movie rudy to tell the cp we want blank blank blank... Anyway.

​​​​​​Considering how badly unified pilots are this is ok.

notEnuf

No, the process is the problem and has been for the industry forever. The unity is is not the issue. Management knows they benefit from the process and are not motivated to change it but incentivized to lengthen it. If any other supplier was an exclusive provider there would be resources and efforts made to get a deal done. Our process while being bound by the RLA doesn't have to be punitive. This needs to change. An amendment that only lasts four years in the face of regulatory structure that require it applies regardless of timeline is a boat anchor. The only way to fix this is to provide a means for wage growth for the duration of the contract's applicable period. Given that there's no situation that will ever allow a withdrawal of service upon the self imposed contractual limit on wage progression, there is no reason to limit wage growth for a specific 4 year period. The period beyond agreed upon wage tables needs to be addressed. The fact that contracts take years has nothing to do with the union but rather the incentive for management to not make a deal until motivated to do so. No other business contract takes this long to amend without an escalator clause or bridge provision to address real world costs during a lack of agreement.

In this environment it would be more beneficial to TA everything and throw it against the wall and see what sticks. Unity is only truly revealed when the agreement is shown to be unacceptable. I thought we learned this lesson. All the internal bickering stops when the true nature of managements intent is revealed. This is why they fight for secrecy surrounding negotiations. Bad morale is bad for business so it's been removed as a tool for the union. If we had leadership that was willing to do EVERYTHING legally within their power to exert pressure we would have a real unity. This period beyond the amendable date is akin to indentured servitude.

Fourpaw

Does anyone know if the flight time under icrew>block hours flown, is the total time in aircraft or just a 12 month look back?

I’m trying to look for a way to review flights times year by year. Thanks.