Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-22-2010, 04:11 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
That sounds quite itchy for 14 hours. 
I bet that thing looks snazzy with the double breasted coat, though.
I do like the logic of the current ALPA position. There, I said it! If we can get continual gains and continually improve the contract, that sounds great. The RLA is so jacked up anyways that this method may be a nice end around to the gridlock like Pinnacle and the APA are having (Pinnacle's contract is 11 years old...).
There is a very fine line between going too far in that direction... Pineapple Guy is an oustanding illustration of that. He is the unionoid that we love to hate and do not trust one bit. (I've come to respect slow's logic over time, go figure. The rhetoric still gets annoying at times, though) While he tries to bring others to "his side" of thinking, he is actually turning people away because his examples are just so horrendously terrible.
I bet that thing looks snazzy with the double breasted coat, though. I do like the logic of the current ALPA position. There, I said it! If we can get continual gains and continually improve the contract, that sounds great. The RLA is so jacked up anyways that this method may be a nice end around to the gridlock like Pinnacle and the APA are having (Pinnacle's contract is 11 years old...).
There is a very fine line between going too far in that direction... Pineapple Guy is an oustanding illustration of that. He is the unionoid that we love to hate and do not trust one bit. (I've come to respect slow's logic over time, go figure. The rhetoric still gets annoying at times, though) While he tries to bring others to "his side" of thinking, he is actually turning people away because his examples are just so horrendously terrible.
Insert passionate defense of PG here...
but thanks for that in red.
01-22-2010, 04:25 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by slowplay
Aww, now you've gone and done it!
Insert passionate defense of PG here... but thanks for that in red.
Insert passionate defense of PG here...
but thanks for that in red.You're welcome. Thanks for toning it down and going for logic! I like that.
Rhetoric and illogical arguments are 2 of my biggest pet peeves! Unfortunately PG has them both down pat. (Re: sick time and commuting among many others) If he can tone it down, he can gain this anonymous pseudonym's respect.
01-22-2010, 05:01 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
The current plan is working because management cooperating with the pilots got them to SOC sooner which was in their interest. I expect that game to continue until the F/A's are dealt with. Let's see what happens between now and 2012 with that strategy.
Cooperative engagement is a potentially a good strategy, if coupled with the hard line (and actual willingness to use it) in your back pocket, and the pursuit of incremental contract enhancements any time the Co. wants something from us.
It's not black or white, but subtle graduations on the spectrum of responses. Your and others cheer leading that if we cooperate really well they'll reward us come contract time is simply scary from a union member.
Pointing to APA's furloughs as a vindication of the current place nice mindset ignores a whole lot of ancillary facts about how APA and AMR got where they are.
"Step away from the reactor"
Cooperative engagement is a potentially a good strategy, if coupled with the hard line (and actual willingness to use it) in your back pocket, and the pursuit of incremental contract enhancements any time the Co. wants something from us.
It's not black or white, but subtle graduations on the spectrum of responses. Your and others cheer leading that if we cooperate really well they'll reward us come contract time is simply scary from a union member.
Pointing to APA's furloughs as a vindication of the current place nice mindset ignores a whole lot of ancillary facts about how APA and AMR got where they are.
"Step away from the reactor"
Carl
01-22-2010, 05:09 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
That sounds quite itchy for 14 hours. I bet that thing looks snazzy with the double breasted coat, though.
I do like the logic of the current ALPA position. There, I said it! If we can get continual gains and continually improve the contract, that sounds great. The RLA is so jacked up anyways that this method may be a nice end around to the gridlock like Pinnacle and the APA are having (Pinnacle's contract is 11 years old...).
There is a very fine line between going too far in that direction... Pineapple Guy is an oustanding illustration of that.
I bet that thing looks snazzy with the double breasted coat, though. I do like the logic of the current ALPA position. There, I said it! If we can get continual gains and continually improve the contract, that sounds great. The RLA is so jacked up anyways that this method may be a nice end around to the gridlock like Pinnacle and the APA are having (Pinnacle's contract is 11 years old...).
There is a very fine line between going too far in that direction... Pineapple Guy is an oustanding illustration of that.
The sad part about the management apologists is that they do so with a deep seated hope of someday being invited into "the room." Management knows this, and they also know that there is no way they'll ever really accept a union goon into "the room." It's kind of perverted, but I've seen this many times: management may outwardly hate those that confront them, but they do respect them. Management deeply disrespects those that blindly follow the talking points that they themselves don't even believe.
Carl
01-22-2010, 05:32 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,571
Carl,
Unless you were on the 9 or 320 you did not do squat. They and they alone got us the improvements. The wide body pilots did nothing because other than a pay cut their lives were not affected(good hotels, crew meals, laundry etc.) Btw for the record I was a 747 FO at the time.
Unless you were on the 9 or 320 you did not do squat. They and they alone got us the improvements. The wide body pilots did nothing because other than a pay cut their lives were not affected(good hotels, crew meals, laundry etc.) Btw for the record I was a 747 FO at the time.
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
The RLA was just as jacked up when we at NWA did what we had to do in the interest of safety.
The sad part about the management apologists is that they do so with a deep seated hope of someday being invited into "the room." Management knows this, and they also know that there is no way they'll ever really accept a union goon into "the room." It's kind of perverted, but I've seen this many times: management may outwardly hate those that confront them, but they do respect them. Management deeply disrespects those that blindly follow the talking points that they themselves don't even believe.
Carl
The sad part about the management apologists is that they do so with a deep seated hope of someday being invited into "the room." Management knows this, and they also know that there is no way they'll ever really accept a union goon into "the room." It's kind of perverted, but I've seen this many times: management may outwardly hate those that confront them, but they do respect them. Management deeply disrespects those that blindly follow the talking points that they themselves don't even believe.
Carl
01-22-2010, 05:37 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by Ferd149
PG
Not so fast. There was nothing organized or pushed, but a bunch of pi$$ed off guys got a few things back after the bankruptcy cram down. We got block or better pay (BOB) time and a half over 80 hours and full pay for deadheading (vs 50%) and those are the one I can quickly think of off the top of my head.
And no, we didn't give anything to get them back.....they did it to get US back on their side vs us trying to get THEM on our side.
Not so fast. There was nothing organized or pushed, but a bunch of pi$$ed off guys got a few things back after the bankruptcy cram down. We got block or better pay (BOB) time and a half over 80 hours and full pay for deadheading (vs 50%) and those are the one I can quickly think of off the top of my head.
And no, we didn't give anything to get them back.....they did it to get US back on their side vs us trying to get THEM on our side.
Ferd, nobody is arguing that there isn't a time and place for our lack of enthusiasm to show. Your bunch of Pi$$ed of guys had excellent timing, with an up economy, incredibly tight manning, and a management that had overreached. How do you think those tactics would work today, with us overstaffed by several hundred?
They wouldn't. Look what happened when UAL's pilots tried it. You can read about it on the ALPA forum log-in page if you're not familiar.
There may be a short period this summer where those tactics would work again, but with the planned shoulder season pulldowns that time wouldn't last. Then where are you?
I've no doubt that the groundskeeper has a lot more foreskin than me, but I'm told Viagra only makes him grow taller.
Looking back at the history of our two companies shows different tactics produced different results. Maybe we can learn from each other.BTW, we had a lot of stuff taken in bankruptcy as well, yet without BOB we got back our 2X premium pay for greenslips (equivalent to your 1.5X over 80 hours). My stock is worth over $55,000 today (a return that's ignored in the arguments), and my pay is higher on certain aircraft than comparable carriers that didn't go through bankruptcy. I also didn't see any of our pilots furloughed, while they did. Delta is projectd to have a small profit this year (2010), which means profit sharing. Last time I checked we got all this during a time when the company continued to lose a bunch of money...can you show me a union at a money losing carrier that has a sustained record of success with adversarial tactics?
01-22-2010, 05:43 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
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Originally Posted by NERD
Carl,
Unless you were on the 9 or 320 you did not do squat. They and they alone got us the improvements. The wide body pilots did nothing because other than a pay cut their lives were not affected(good hotels, crew meals, laundry etc.) Btw for the record I was a 747 FO at the time.
Unless you were on the 9 or 320 you did not do squat. They and they alone got us the improvements. The wide body pilots did nothing because other than a pay cut their lives were not affected(good hotels, crew meals, laundry etc.) Btw for the record I was a 747 FO at the time.
Carl
01-22-2010, 05:55 PM
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Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I don't know why you would feel you have to demean part of your own pilot group. Everyone contributed. Every action helped.
Carl
Carl
01-22-2010, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by slowplay
I've no doubt that the groundskeeper has a lot more foreskin than me, but I'm told Viagra only makes him grow taller. Looking back at the history of our two companies shows different tactics produced different results. Maybe we can learn from each other.
Looking back at the history of our two companies shows different tactics produced different results. Maybe we can learn from each other.I'd like to learn where the hell I put that little blue pill.
Carl
01-22-2010, 06:00 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
Unfortunately PG has them both down pat. (Re: sick time and commuting among many others) If he can tone it down, he can gain this anonymous pseudonym's respect.
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