Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-25-2010 | 09:04 AM
Underboob King
Joined: May 2005
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From: Guppy Commander
The public doesn't really want to know what we make. I don't think public education is going to change their opinion or help us get what we think we deserve. Do you really think the public is going to support 777/747 wages of $300-400K/year? Do you really think they care if their DC9 F/O is "ONLY" making $80K/year when the average American is only making $45K/year? Setting higher barriers for entry (like lots of other professionals - doctors, lawyers, etc.) will certainly raise wages because their will be less pilots, lower supply and higher demand - that will certainly help. Reducing capacity (through company failures, consolidation, etc.) has certainly helped with profitability. While everyone would like to get back to C2K it doesn't do us much good if the industry doesn't support it and we go back into bankruptcy and only get those wages for a couple of years (I never saw a penny of C2K - furloughed!!!).
One of the things nobody talks about was the concept of paying guys $200K+ back in 2001 for guys to sit around and only fly one trip/month (I ran into a number of those guys who were 767 captains flying one trip/month on reserve). While everyone envies the SWA rates we need to remember everyone one of those guys earns that money by flying a lot. I remember seeing a study that said the average SWA pilot flies 60-65 hours/month while back then the average Legacy pilot was only flying 40-45 hours/month. I know that we are flying a lot more now than we did then (much more productive) but that is where it's going to stay. I do know that we should come up with a rate so that everyone (DC F/O to 777/747 Capt) makes a good wage based on crediting 70 hours/month. That is all 15-20% of the company that is on reserve can count on. I am also tired of counting on my per diem making up a significant portion (5-10%) of my paycheck when it should be used to pay for my travel expenses on the road.
One of the things nobody talks about was the concept of paying guys $200K+ back in 2001 for guys to sit around and only fly one trip/month (I ran into a number of those guys who were 767 captains flying one trip/month on reserve). While everyone envies the SWA rates we need to remember everyone one of those guys earns that money by flying a lot. I remember seeing a study that said the average SWA pilot flies 60-65 hours/month while back then the average Legacy pilot was only flying 40-45 hours/month. I know that we are flying a lot more now than we did then (much more productive) but that is where it's going to stay. I do know that we should come up with a rate so that everyone (DC F/O to 777/747 Capt) makes a good wage based on crediting 70 hours/month. That is all 15-20% of the company that is on reserve can count on. I am also tired of counting on my per diem making up a significant portion (5-10%) of my paycheck when it should be used to pay for my travel expenses on the road.
I dont understand why we even talk about the AVG persons income level? This isnt an AVG job and its not easy to get into at this level. I just think its silly to even care what the AVG person makes when discussing what we SHOULD make. When the AVG person holds hundreds of lives in their hands while on the job then the avg person can compare what they do in relation to what we do.
The AVERAGE person doesnt:
- flush their careers down the toilet if they make mistakes
- lose their careers if they have medical issues
- have jeopardy event training every 6-12 months
- isnt away from their families 1/2 the year
- doesnt miss holidays on a regular basis
- etc
04-25-2010 | 09:08 AM
Moderator
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From: B757/767
Delta Flight Diverted, Man Detained After Attempting to Open Plane's Door
Associated Press
A Delta Air Lines flight from Los Angeles to Florida was diverted to Albuquerque early Friday after a passenger sprayed the first-class cabin with a water bottle, tried to open a cabin door and threatened to blow up the aircraft.
ALBUQUERQUE, N.M.-- A Delta Air Lines flight from Los Angeles to Florida was diverted to Albuquerque early Friday after a passenger sprayed the first-class cabin with a water bottle, tried to open a cabin door and threatened to blow up the aircraft.
Crew members and passengers on Delta flight 2148 to Tampa subdued Stanley Dwayne Sheffield, 46. He was taken into federal custody after the plane landed at 1:30 a.m. Friday.
FBI Supervisory Special Agent Darrin Jones said authorities do not believe the incident was related to terrorism.
Sheffield, whose hometown in Florida wasn't disclosed by investigators, was charged with interference with flight crew members and destruction of aircraft.
Sheffield made an initial appearance Friday before U.S. Magistrate Richard Puglisi, who scheduled preliminary and detention hearings for Monday. Assistant U.S. Attorney Chuck Barth said Jones remained jailed in Albuquerque.
According to a criminal complaint, the incident began 90 minutes after takeoff when a flight attendant noticed Sheffield, seated in first class, was awake and asked if he could bring anything.
Sheffield did not respond.
The flight attendant asked again 15 minutes later, again with no response.
Sheffield then went to a lavatory and, while returning, grabbed a 2-liter water bottle from a drink cart and sprayed other passengers.
"Get behind me, Satan," Sheffield told the flight attendant.
When flight attendants asked Sheffield to return to his seat, he refused, then tried to open the aircraft's main door while making threats about blowing up the airplane.
"I am going to bring this plane down," Sheffield said. The complaint said he also shouted: "You need to land this plane or I'm going to blow it up" and, "I will blow up this plane and take you all with me." He then approached the cockpit door, again shouting, "Get behind me, Satan."
Several passengers struggled with Sheffield and tied him up with seat belt extenders and nylon hand restraints.
A passenger told investigators Sheffield broke one of the restraints and a leather belt before he was subdued.
The pilot decided to land in Albuquerque, where Sheffield was taken into custody. The flight to Tampa resumed at 4 a.m.
Susan Elliott, a spokeswoman at Delta's headquarters in Atlanta, said the aircraft, an Airbus A320, and its 100 passengers and seven crew members never were in jeopardy.
"It is impossible to open a cabin door during flight because of the pressurization of the aircraft," she said.
Associated Press
A Delta Air Lines flight from Los Angeles to Florida was diverted to Albuquerque early Friday after a passenger sprayed the first-class cabin with a water bottle, tried to open a cabin door and threatened to blow up the aircraft.
ALBUQUERQUE, N.M.-- A Delta Air Lines flight from Los Angeles to Florida was diverted to Albuquerque early Friday after a passenger sprayed the first-class cabin with a water bottle, tried to open a cabin door and threatened to blow up the aircraft.
Crew members and passengers on Delta flight 2148 to Tampa subdued Stanley Dwayne Sheffield, 46. He was taken into federal custody after the plane landed at 1:30 a.m. Friday.
FBI Supervisory Special Agent Darrin Jones said authorities do not believe the incident was related to terrorism.
Sheffield, whose hometown in Florida wasn't disclosed by investigators, was charged with interference with flight crew members and destruction of aircraft.
Sheffield made an initial appearance Friday before U.S. Magistrate Richard Puglisi, who scheduled preliminary and detention hearings for Monday. Assistant U.S. Attorney Chuck Barth said Jones remained jailed in Albuquerque.
According to a criminal complaint, the incident began 90 minutes after takeoff when a flight attendant noticed Sheffield, seated in first class, was awake and asked if he could bring anything.
Sheffield did not respond.
The flight attendant asked again 15 minutes later, again with no response.
Sheffield then went to a lavatory and, while returning, grabbed a 2-liter water bottle from a drink cart and sprayed other passengers.
"Get behind me, Satan," Sheffield told the flight attendant.
When flight attendants asked Sheffield to return to his seat, he refused, then tried to open the aircraft's main door while making threats about blowing up the airplane.
"I am going to bring this plane down," Sheffield said. The complaint said he also shouted: "You need to land this plane or I'm going to blow it up" and, "I will blow up this plane and take you all with me." He then approached the cockpit door, again shouting, "Get behind me, Satan."
Several passengers struggled with Sheffield and tied him up with seat belt extenders and nylon hand restraints.
A passenger told investigators Sheffield broke one of the restraints and a leather belt before he was subdued.
The pilot decided to land in Albuquerque, where Sheffield was taken into custody. The flight to Tampa resumed at 4 a.m.
Susan Elliott, a spokeswoman at Delta's headquarters in Atlanta, said the aircraft, an Airbus A320, and its 100 passengers and seven crew members never were in jeopardy.
"It is impossible to open a cabin door during flight because of the pressurization of the aircraft," she said.
04-25-2010 | 09:22 AM
Happy to be here
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From: A-320A
88; To sum it up balance. We need to find a place between burn the house down and too scared to push because of the fear of getting slapped like we did in Ch11.
04-25-2010 | 09:36 AM
At home on the maddog!
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
DAL 88,
I hardly think it's reasonable to suggest C2K provided 'traditional' buying power. I think we all expect substantial gains in 2012, but to expect restoration to C2K levels just doesn't seem reasonable. We live and work in a drastically different world than existed 10 years ago. We can only negotiate succesfully if we have the will to do our part, but it takes more than just a strong-willed, unified pilot group. This has already been stated by numerous people here, in numerous ways, but while I don't care to change your mind on the issue, I do think the concensus is that we need to look forward and not waste energy trying to ressurect a very brief, but admittedly glorious, part of our history.
I hardly think it's reasonable to suggest C2K provided 'traditional' buying power. I think we all expect substantial gains in 2012, but to expect restoration to C2K levels just doesn't seem reasonable. We live and work in a drastically different world than existed 10 years ago. We can only negotiate succesfully if we have the will to do our part, but it takes more than just a strong-willed, unified pilot group. This has already been stated by numerous people here, in numerous ways, but while I don't care to change your mind on the issue, I do think the concensus is that we need to look forward and not waste energy trying to ressurect a very brief, but admittedly glorious, part of our history.
Maybe I'm not being clear enough. When you look at what this profession has typically afforded... I'm talking 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, and well into the 1980's... all C2K did was basically bring us back to those levels of buying power, did it not? So, no, I don't think C2K was some kind of "glorious" aberration. I think it was an appropriate level of compensation based on several decades of precedent.
So, again, it seems to me that the consensus here is that our profession is no longer and will no longer be worth what it typically has been worth. What am I missing?
04-25-2010 | 09:41 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
You should know me well enough to know that I'm not a "burn the house down" kind of guy. I agree that it is a delicate balance between the two extremes. I also agree that we need to find that balance. And we better find it before we get into negotiations or we're going to get our collective heads handed to us again. As always, just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
04-25-2010 | 10:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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Sometimes the house is not worth saving.
04-25-2010 | 10:08 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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Thanks for the correctiuon. Had my time line off. Point was pattern bargaining works, and it worked because one airline (NWA) had the gonads to go on strike in 1998.
If you aren't willing to pull the trigger, the bar will never be moved upwards. Keep that in mind as we approach 2012
If you aren't willing to pull the trigger, the bar will never be moved upwards. Keep that in mind as we approach 2012
04-25-2010 | 10:14 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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No tricky bean counting, DAL is a publicly owned company. Slow was talking "free cash flow", not profits. While I'm certainly no financial analyst, I believe there is a difference. Delta reported cash flow from operations last quarter as $1B, probably not a bad thing.
04-25-2010 | 10:15 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Pattern bargaining works, it worked prior to the NWA strike and it will work again. Having the APA, stuck in their rhetorical chest pounding world and, USAPA, completely dysfunctional, certainly doesn't help. Nevertheless, there are pilot groups who will move the ball forward. It takes leverage and it comes in many forms.
BTW, that is an honest (not rhetorical) question. I'd really like to know how you see the application of "pattern bargaining" actually achieving our objective... assuming restoration is the objective.
04-25-2010 | 10:34 AM
Happy to be here
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From: A-320A
88;
I know you and I know what you want. I "want" the same things too. As I outlined a few pages ago, there is a real possibility of getting restoration. Many things need to fall in place for that to happen.
Could we do it right now? No way. Without a CAL and AMR pilots contract with gains? Maybe. Without our margins going up to where they were prior to C2K? Maybe but not where they are now.
In the end, if nothing changes are those rates sustainable?
I beleive that restoration is our desire and a goal. Many goals take a few plays to get to. Yes? LOA, LOA, section six, LOA, LOA etc.
I know you and I know what you want. I "want" the same things too. As I outlined a few pages ago, there is a real possibility of getting restoration. Many things need to fall in place for that to happen.
Could we do it right now? No way. Without a CAL and AMR pilots contract with gains? Maybe. Without our margins going up to where they were prior to C2K? Maybe but not where they are now.
In the end, if nothing changes are those rates sustainable?
I beleive that restoration is our desire and a goal. Many goals take a few plays to get to. Yes? LOA, LOA, section six, LOA, LOA etc.
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