88, we don't live in a glass bubble, pattern bargaining will be crucial to obtaining significant contractual gains.

Ask yourself a few questions:

Do you truly believe that if no one else raises their rates significantly, that the Delta pilots can achieve, and sustain, a contract that restores C2K + inflation, + DB, + medical, + disability, + scheduling, + scope? I'm assuming all of that is part of restoration, or are you just talking "partial" restoration?

Do you believe management would give us that if we just simply demanded it?

Do you think management would sign off on it because, once the traveling public becomes aware of our plight they would demand that we get it?

Do you believe that the NMB would release us for self help if we demanded a doubling of the cost of our contract, with all our competitors still working within 10% of current book?

I think you are being rhetorical if you demand something that "you know" is not feasible.

We do not live in a glass bubble and what goes on around us, the state of the economy, the industry and our airline both in good times and in bad, matters.

I believe our goal is to improve the pay and working conditions of the Delta pilots, to get as much as we can, for as many pilots as we can, as quickly as we can.

I believe we should make it clear to all concerned that restoration is our objective. There are many different aspects to doing that. But as a starting point, if we don't clearly state it as our objective, we are unlikely to achieve it. Certainly, the economy and many other factors will make a difference as to just how far we can actually go. I just believe that, by not making restoration our objective, we are basically agreeing with management that airline pilots are just not worth (and are never going to be worth) what we have been in the past. In other words, we establish our current compensation as as some kind of new baseline from which we seek traditional improvements. (As opposed to digging out of a very deep hole that we should have never allowed ourselves to be put into in the first place.) I also think, with the "this is the best we can do" mentality, we are very likely to fall short of what we could achieve otherwise. I have never known of anyone to achieve outstanding results by setting mediocre goals.

But thanks for answering my question. (And, yes, it was an honest question no matter what you imply.) At least I know where you stand and I understand what you're saying.

I'm not encouraged by what I'm reading here.

FWIW 88, most of the guys over in the Kremlin know we want restoration. If you are implying we need to state it every time we are at the table, push for it.

I do not see anyone on here stating that we are waving the "We are willing and ready to accept less" flag. What every person on here, including myself is saying is there are external forces that need to mature to get to a point were demanding 100% restoration is a little more than just a slogan. We all want to get to that point. I do not think there is one pilot I know that would state; "Pay me less because I am not worth it." If you find one, I am sure there is an ulterior motive.

Push you CAL and AMR friends to sign PWA's that add 20, 30, 40 , 50, 60 , 70% to our book. That is what I want to see. Improvements well above our by CAL and by AMR. It puts 100% restoration within striking distance.

Thanks for your perspective, ACL. I totally understand what you're saying.

It's not that I think we should pound our fist on the table and demand restoration every time we meet with management. The problem I see is just the opposite... our MEC folks never talk about restoration. I think this sends the wrong signal to all concerned parties (including our pilot group and management). I think it sets expectations that are too low all around.

The one place where I really disagree with you is with regards to whether management really understands our objective. Sure, they know we want restoration. Who doesn't want to be paid as much as possible? But our actions (and especially what I'm reading here) would indicate that we have accepted as reality something substantially less than that. I just think that can only serve to work against us.

No, I'm returning from long mil leave. I'm a DeltaN 2000 hire on the bus as FO.

Now when have they had the opportunity to do so with managment? Look, I'm all for getting C2K and then some, but post bankruptcy there has been one TA. That was negotiated on the front end of one of the worst economic downturns in history with oil skyrocketing. Not exactly a strong time to negotiate more money.

That being said, I agree that restoration should be a goal with the next set of negotiations. Management owes this pilot group raises for the things we've accomplished since the merger was approved. We worked our butts off to get intergrated, and achieve an SOC. LCC doesn't even have a single contract yet, let alone a SOC. We did it in what I'm sure is record time, and we did it for the biggest airline in the world. That alone is worth restoration IMO.

Well welcome back! :)

Part of your indoc is to read this entire thread, and catch up on all you've missed on.:p

I keed!

There have been many Chairman's Letter's, communications updates, and even a "mission statement". I haven't seen restoration mentioned even once in any of that. I am quite certain that management is paying attention.


Thanks. I'm really glad to hear at least someone say that!

... maybe he thought he was on an MD88.

Not really. Health Care is not an open market where buyers search for a good deal prior to "buying" a procedure. My wife's "emergency procedure" is going to be more than $30K for a routine C Section. Two criteria influenced the decision to authorize the work. 1) She could have been at real risk and, 2) I'm only responsible for a fraction of the cost.

If we operated the last flight out of (Saigon, Bosnia, pick your war ...) then we could probably command an incredibly inflated market rate. However, people shop around to carry the wife and two kids to grandma's house.

I'm not sure the market for our services and the services of a Doctor are similar enough for a valid comparison to be made. Our customers buy our tickets. A Doc's customers are usually heavily subsidized and under duress.

In our history there have almost always been more pilot applicants than there are jobs. As proof, I offer that Wilbur and Orville had to flip a coin since before the first airplane flew, there were already twice as many pilots as the market required.

The secret to raising our pay rates is the same as it always has been, scope. We define Delta flying and Delta pilots broadly, so as to increase demand for those on our seniority list ... and in doing so we restrict the Company's ability to chose more lowly paid non Delta pilots.

Historically (if you chart this stuff out) scope is a leading indicator. Pay concessions follow scope relaxation. It is the opposite of the scope our union was founded on. Back in those days, pay increases followed restrictions in outsourcing.