newKnow

If that happens, it seems as though they would have to expand in JFK. Or, is that not possible.

HEY 80! I didn't get the pic you were supposed to send!

newKnow

I think we are on the same Mighty DC-9 Page. The good thing about the DC-9 is that you wind up getting a lot of "cases" pretty quickly and can figure things out like a pro after a few months on the airplane.

forgot to bid

Some of you 9 guys like to tease the 9 for being hot. I'm thinking about the 88, some are hot and some are not. So, for the 9/88 fleet, are hot airplanes an APU quality issue, PACK issue or something else? And more importantly, can we fix the problem? You know, fix the glitch. But not the glitch in payroll.

DAL 88 Driver

I think it really varies as to the cause. Sometimes it's an APU quality issue, sometimes it's a pack issue, sometimes it's both. I have 12 years on the 88... the -9 is way worse, mainly because the APU is weaker and you often can only run one pack off the APU.

The key with either airplane, though, is to stay ahead of it if at all possible. I always turn both auto controllers to full cold as we descend below 10,000'. Precooling the cabin this way really helps. If it's extremely hot outside (like 95 degrees or above), I start the APU on short final. That way the one minute timer will have elapsed and we have cold air available from the APU as soon as we turn off the runway. Hooking up a good, cold source of gate air within seconds of when the airplane parks is another biggie. This is the area that I have seen fall short the most often, especially since I've been on the -9. What I've found myself doing most of the time this summer is running the APU to supplement the inadequate or nonexistent gate air. If I'm supplementing gate air that is not quite cold enough, I can use the Air Cond Colder switch on the APU to help bring the overall air temp down. A lot of guys are afraid to use this switch, but it is really effective when used correctly. Of course, lowering the window shades and opening all the gasper outlets when parked at the gate makes a big difference too.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something. Anyone else chime in here. Unfortunately, it's just the "nature of the beast" with the 88 and -9 that you have to spend a considerable amount of attention and effort to stay ahead of this and keep our passengers comfortable. I had to refuse an airplane a few weeks ago in ATL because the APU was INOP and they had let the airplane bake in the sun all morning with no air hooked up. It was on one of the D gates with no gate air, and they couldn't come up with an external cart that would put out cold enough and strong enough air to cool the aircraft down. After two hours of trying to cool it down enough, we had to cancel the flight.

buzzpat

That is, unfortunately, not true on the 73N. Apparently, we lead the fleet in unstable approaches by a wide margin. Some 30% of DAL's unstable approaches are courtesy of the 73. Probably a combination of reasons but its not an easy jet to slow down and the speed brakes are minimally effective. Across our fleet, we're not configuring too early, most often its a little late.

DAL 88 Driver

Obviously, some airplanes slow down better than others. I haven't flown the 73... so I don't have a feel for how the energy management would go on a fuel efficient approach on that airplane. The bottom line with any airplane is that you have to meet the stabilized approach criteria and be able to fly the approach smoothly. My goal on any approach is to delay configuration and keep the throttles at idle as much as possible but still meet the stabilized approach criteria and stay within Delta's parameters for that type of approach.

It takes some experience on a particular aircraft to figure out exactly how to do that without configuring too early or too late. For example, on the MD-88, I could do a straight in visual coming down the glideslope holding 250 knots with the throttles at idle. Unless I had a tailwind or could see on TCAS that I was eating someone's lunch ahead of me, I could wait until 10 miles out to begin configuring. I would configure pretty much as soon as I reached the appropriate speed for each slats/flaps setting (allowing about a 5 to 10 knot buffer to make sure I didn't overspeed the flaps). This would result in me meeting all the stabilized approach criteria and not needing to push the throttles up until just under 1000' AFE... usually around 700' to 800'. Going into someplace like SAV and landing straight in to the east, for example, I could usually get on a 3 to 1 descent profile about 40 miles out (I would actually tune in the glideslope from that far out and just fly it down). Normally, I would end up having had the throttles at idle from at least 40 miles out all the way to about 700' or 800' on final. I would meet the stabilized approach criteria with no problem and save a bunch of fuel!

The DC-9 slows down better than the 88, so I can fly this same profile on the -9 using a rule of thumb of about 8 to 9 miles out to start configuring. An airplane like a 737 or 757 (from what I've heard they don't go down/slow down very well) might need 12 to 15 miles or something like that. I don't know what it would be, but the point is that I'm sure you could develop a rule of thumb that would allow this kind of energy management and fuel efficiency and still leave some buffer to make sure you meet the stabilized approach criteria.

newKnow

FTB,

All I can say is that ALL DC-9 are hot when the surface temperatures are in the upper 80's and above. Like 88 said, you have to stay in front of them and cool the cabin on approach and you MUST get ground air to go along with the APU. Even then, with APU and ground air, normally that just keeps the cabin down to the luke-warm status. On normal hot summer days, as a DC-9 driver, you are only cool when 1.) you are in the terminal or, 2.) above FL 180.

The fixes I have seen on the -9 are the shields for the cockpit windows and the window shades being pulled down and gaspers opened int he main cabin. Other than those, I don't know what we can do.

The few -88's I have been on this summer had no heat/cooling issues that I noticed. But, maybe that was because I had just gotten off a DC-9.

I wonder how the MD-90's are with cooling.....

forgot to bid

Figuring out howlong it takes a jet to slow down I think is the hardest part of any transition. If you don't know if it'll slow then you don't know if it'll drop for you either. 10 miles is best on the 88, I don't see anybody doing much less than that. Why do we always have to be in a hurry for no apparent reason anyways? Why taxi before we call ramp? Why doesn't google maps allow you to have a no ghetto option? Why did hockey players start using the 'cup' in 1874 but it wasn't until 1979 they used helmets? All important questions.

But as for me, I mean I go fast in climbs, cruise and fast as heck in descent but thats until I'm close in. I'm kind of a lazy final guy. The time on final is a special time for me and the 88 and the autothrottle red light, autopilot discconect, airspeed indicator and landing checklist. But it works well, especially when you go 1-2 weeks between trips.

forgot to bid

I've had a few 88s that had weak APU bleed air and you could tell it during engine start. Figured thats why there running so hot on start. I've had engines run up to about 10 degrees short of max temp on start and then ones with great APUs keep even hot engines 100 degrees below max temp.

The good news, I've had more Captains than not start a trip telling me "I don't care about the APU, if you need it, start it. And start it when we clear of the runway. Keep these people cold."

newKnow

Yes, my summertime hot weather brief is:

"Dude. I don't care what you do, just keep it cool."