You think Carl is the type that would put doo doo in the capsule?

 

No, the single reason why why our profession is not what it used to be is the Law of Supply and Demand. There are a lot more of us than there used to be, it is much easier to gain the skills required than it used to be, the government has lowered the barriers to entry in the marketplace (both labor and the general marketplace) to ridiculous levels, and there are few pilots required at the major carriers (fewer jets, no three man cockpits, work rules).

The elected representatives during the pre bankruptcy days may have made mistakes. Hindsight is always 20/20. Scambo is right, Ch 11 was unavoidable, probably the plan all along after C2K. Had they dug their heels in and not made any concessions, would the result be as you predicted? Or could it have been worse? Would the judge have gutted the contract even further than what was agreed to? Who knows?

One thing is for sure, the past is the past. To constantly focus on what was lost and what used to be can cloud one's vision of the future. Unless the anti DALPA crowd have a plan to change the laws of economics, I don't see their plan having any positive effect on our future.

We face huge pressures on our profession in the near future. Besides the normal Supply and Demand curve there are technological pressures, political, structural pressures (I'm talking Skyteam here). We need union leaders who have their eyes on the future, not on the past. Like Bar touts, unity is our spinach. Without it we will be crushed.

 

I don't know where he's getting this, but it's wrong about management contracts and pensions.

I believe there's only one manager left at Delta that had an individual contract during the bankruptcy. That's the VP of Tech Ops. He got taken to court just like we did. A couple of the Mullin managers fought in court to preserve their separation benefits (Burns in particular). They didn't keep their pre-bankruptcy package. Nobody in management currently has an individual contract. Their (top 5) compensation package is spelled out in the annual report

I can't find my list, but I think there's only 3 of 35 SERP recipients left on property. One of them left under GG and was asked to come back after a couple years separation by RA. Another was an attorney who was the bottom recipient (I think it was $50K). The SERPents are the ones I particularly loathe.

There was no separate management pension plan at Delta. Their pension was part of the non-contract plan and has been hard frozen. Their non-qualified plan was rejected (terminated) by the bankruptcy court.

There's lots of reasons to be pi$$ed at Mullin, Reid, Burns, et. al. What your fellow pilot reported to you above isn't one of them, as the facts don't support what he heard.

 

Carl,

With all due respect, while I can't comment on the Hawaiian Airline's situation or NWA's financial position in BK, DAL came dangerously close, and by that I recall it was measured in days not weeks or months of running out of operating cash and liquidating. The company was frightened of the pilots back then and the union had the inside knowledge of the precarious financial position of the company. We were at the abyss, stared at it, and it stared back at us.

I hate that we lost the pensions and others kept theirs. I hate that we had to take a second round of paycuts. But neither you, nor I, were at the table when this was going down. But those that I knew who were at the table painted a very, very bleak picture of what could have happened with certain creditors had we just "voted down" the TA to see what we could have gotten better. There may not have been enough time to see what was behind door number 2.

 

Really?

Not.

USAirways went bankrupt. Twice. Went through the courts. Twice. What types of bankruptcy returns did they get? Twice. Oh, they started the process as the highest paid pilots in the country (for two months).

UAL went bankrupt. Their group learned a little from Airways. Their management still got two bites at the apple, but they got bankruptcy claim of $3 billion for their pilots (I think it paid 23 cents per dollar or less than $700 million) and a $550 million dollar note covering about 9200 pilots when their pension was terminated. They started the process as the second highest paid pilots in the industry.

When Delta went bankrupt we called for a summit of everyone who had been down that path. We negotiated a claim that paid $1.2+ billion in cash and a $650 million Note that was distributed among 6800 pilots. We started the process (pre-LOA 46 bankruptcy avoidance contract) as the highest paid pilots in the industry.

Everyone that chose to "fight" got their contract rejected. The AFA at NWA even got a court decision that screwed all of organized labor because it precludes the right to strike after a contract rejection. Brilliant. It's real easy to say "If ALPA would have told the company that we have contracts and are not willing to negotiate, we might have taken some pay cuts and still lost some pensions," when they're not yours to lose. You had no skin in the game, and the real world results don't match your rhetoric.

Oh, Hawaiian's creditors and shareowners were paid 100 cents on the dollar. Their bankruptcy wasn't exactly comparable to everyone elses. Their primary competitor Aloha wound up liquidating.

APA was first and early to the concession stand, undercutting most other legacy contracts beginning in May, 2003. That 23% pay reduction from their C97 rates (along with that from the rest of labor) allowed AMR management to avoid bankruptcy. A couple of other major carriers didn't participate in the pre-911 bargaining cycle, so they were frozen at rates substantially below those that led the way to bankruptcy.

 

Consider that the company can feed specific info to ALPA to effect a desired outcome.

As a previous MEC Chair, I have witnessed this happening, and the "confidentiality" agreements with the MEC's prevent the MEC from presenting this opinion to the membership.

The corp legal teams know this, and know how to use this to affect their desired outcome.

 

Financial reports and SEC filings are public record and can't be faked under penalty of law. The company can put their spin on the data, but the numbers are the numbers. I'm sure ALPA employs guys who know how to read a 10 something or other.

 

Under the former bankruptcy law, liquidation was not likely until and unless we couldnt meet current costs based on cash flow after entering chapter 11 (remember how our caterers cut us off and then were told they were wrong-because they were getting paid). In a way,you make Carls point for him. We were not filing chapter 7. The "very bleak" picture was unfortunately very much believed by the MEC at that time. I think in hindsight, everyone must agree, we cut too deep.

The real failing was not our MEC's though, it was the ALPA national advisors who were not watching the store close enough prior to bankruptcy. I was paying attention at the time and I did find it interesting that the pilots who retired early (and all at once) got their information from somewhere on when to time their exodus.

Sadly, at this point, it is ancient history - like so mmuch in life. If our perspective had been more correct, some of the things we talk about in hindsight may have actually been implementable. If we had turned down the TA... who the heck knows ... I think it would have worked, but I have no facts to back that up.

I would at some point in my career like to see DAL pilots turn something down if it wasnt good enough.

 

So I am going to eventually read through most of these posts, but it is obviously going to take a WHILE so I'll ask. Are there upcoming contract negotiations? If so when?

Sorry if it is a dumb question, I just started looking at this thread

 

While you are at it, can you transcribe this thread and have kinkos make it into a book? You might have a best seller there,I'd buy it ... Buzz?