Originally Posted by tsquare

Yup.... looks like plainsmen... er.. uh tigers... uh.. war cam eagles and the ducks...

Originally Posted by Lifeisgood

Question for the 320 pilots:
When you go through the 320 initial training do they give you the cockpit poster?

I got all the manuals, but there was no poster. I like having them besides the pictures in vol 2.

Thx

Originally Posted by slowplay

Really?

Not.

USAirways went bankrupt. Twice. Went through the courts. Twice. What types of bankruptcy returns did they get? Twice. Oh, they started the process as the highest paid pilots in the country (for two months).

UAL went bankrupt. Their group learned a little from Airways. Their management still got two bites at the apple, but they got bankruptcy claim of $3 billion for their pilots (I think it paid 23 cents per dollar or less than $700 million) and a $550 million dollar note covering about 9200 pilots when their pension was terminated. They started the process as the second highest paid pilots in the industry.

When Delta went bankrupt we called for a summit of everyone who had been down that path. We negotiated a claim that paid $1.2+ billion in cash and a $650 million Note that was distributed among 6800 pilots. We started the process (pre-LOA 46 bankruptcy avoidance contract) as the highest paid pilots in the industry.

Everyone that chose to "fight" got their contract rejected. The AFA at NWA even got a court decision that screwed all of organized labor because it precludes the right to strike after a contract rejection. Brilliant. It's real easy to say "If ALPA would have told the company that we have contracts and are not willing to negotiate, we might have taken some pay cuts and still lost some pensions," when they're not yours to lose. You had no skin in the game, and the real world results don't match your rhetoric.

Oh, Hawaiian's creditors and shareowners were paid 100 cents on the dollar. Their bankruptcy wasn't exactly comparable to everyone elses. Their primary competitor Aloha wound up liquidating.

APA was first and early to the concession stand, undercutting most other legacy contracts beginning in May, 2003. That 23% pay reduction from their C97 rates (along with that from the rest of labor) allowed AMR management to avoid bankruptcy. A couple of other major carriers didn't participate in the pre-911 bargaining cycle, so they were frozen at rates substantially below those that led the way to bankruptcy.

Originally Posted by nerd2009

Consider that the company can feed specific info to ALPA to effect a desired outcome.

As a previous MEC Chair, I have witnessed this happening, and the "confidentiality" agreements with the MEC's prevent the MEC from presenting this opinion to the membership.

The corp legal teams know this, and know how to use this to affect their desired outcome.

Originally Posted by satchip

Financial reports and SEC filings are public record and can't be faked under penalty of law. The company can put their spin on the data, but the numbers are the numbers. I'm sure ALPA employs guys who know how to read a 10 something or other.

Originally Posted by jetnwa

Alfa,


Personally, I think the merger went extremely well. I hope we keep a good liquidity position and never get near Ch-11 again

Originally Posted by Check Essential

Some of it highly misleading.

It surprises me to see slowplay defend anything about the robber baron regime that ran Delta during that period.
The VP of Tech Ops is a "SERPent". He got one of the trust accounts.
Yes, the excess benefit (non-qualified) portion of management pensions was terminated in bankruptcy, AFTER the money (plussed up for taxes) was all paid out to the serp beneficiaries in the form of secular trusts.

And this:
"Nobody in management has an individual contract."

That might be the doozy of all misleading statements.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

Another excellent rewrite of history. The Northwest FA's rejected deals and their contract was rejected. That means they had a contract designed by management. They said they would strike and they were given a federal injunction barring them from striking. When they saw everyone else getting large bankruptcy claims they went crawling back to management and accepted their imposed "contract" in exchange for a small claim. Our non-contract flight attendants came out of bankruptcy better than they did. In fact, one of their "interference" claims is that Delta management is flouting the superior deal the non contract F/A's have. Even the AFA doesn't agree with your claim.

DAL first offered their bankruptcy ask to ALPA in August 2005. The final deal was signed in April 2006, 8 months later. It was not the first offer that came down from management it was not 10th or 20th, it was after a long series of negotiations, we took them to court, we took them to an arbitration, we organized our strike committee, we picketed, we took many actions that gave us the best bankruptcy deal amongst all the other carriers.

Aloha went into bankruptcy and they liquidated. Using your Hawaiin logic, you can say ALPA saved your job. All bankruptcies are different.

For a guy that claims so much experience, you seem to never get your facts or your history straight.

Originally Posted by Reroute

Carl, I'm not sure if the NWA pilots signed the first offer or not, but here are my notes from DAL's first offer. Since you seem to know so much, could you tell me whether these terms were accepted?

Company 1113 proposal

*200 79 Seat Jets
*Rotation value reduced by minutes under
* 19.5% pay reduction – No raises for 5 years
*100 Seat Pay $88.93
*Delete International Pay
*No Claim
*No Note
*Per Diem $1.80 domestic $2.05 international
*Vacation 2.45 per day eliminate 5th and 6th weeks
*Release time of 15 minutes versus 30
*Crew for flights over 12 hours- 1 Captain and 3 first officers
*No Duty Period Average
*Duty Period Minimum of 3 hours
*No Duty Period Credit
*No Rotation Credit
*Rotation Guarantee: Eliminate guarantee for trips interrupted
shortened due to reroute or irops
*Sick Leave: 20 hours/year full pay, 60% for excess
*Furlough pay reductions
*Eliminate all furlough protections
*No provision to put MPPP money in pilots control if pension is terminated
*Long term disability only 2 years coverage unless completely disabled and
unable to hold any job.
*5 year duration

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

The biggest fallacy I hear is "Vote No, It will always get better." In fact, most of the time it gets worse.