Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-06-2011 | 06:40 AM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
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From: A-320A
Actually, that's not true. What I have said, and still believe, is that absent our fellow pilots doing their part instead of thumping their chests, it is unsustainable for Delta pilots pay rates to be 50+% above the industry average. We can be at the top, even some percentage above the next competitor, but not 50%..
02-06-2011 | 06:40 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,350
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From: Flying the SEC
What's odd? This is just a picture from the Madrid overnight.
The older guy in the middle is obviously an ER Captain with his young FA girlfriend (on the left). The guy on the right is a junior FO on the ER with his Cougar FA girlfriend. I mean, they ARE wearing Red Dresses - jeesh guys. You can't tell from the angle of the shot, but they are wearing their Sub Commander suits.
The guy in the middle? The gay FA that everyone gets along with.
The older guy in the middle is obviously an ER Captain with his young FA girlfriend (on the left). The guy on the right is a junior FO on the ER with his Cougar FA girlfriend. I mean, they ARE wearing Red Dresses - jeesh guys. You can't tell from the angle of the shot, but they are wearing their Sub Commander suits.
The guy in the middle? The gay FA that everyone gets along with.
02-06-2011 | 06:41 AM
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,257
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Heck if the TSA unionises I think the military should have a vote next. With the new rules it should pass. Then they could strike and not go to war.
02-06-2011 | 07:50 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,263
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From: DAL 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I've been suspicious for some time now about ALPA national's agenda. Those suspicions were erased today by the latest Air Line Pilot magazine. The following is part of an interview of Capt Moak on page 12:
ALPA staff: What do you think are or should be ALPA's highest priorities in collective bargaining? Contract enforcement? Safety? Security?
Capt Moak: "...Local pilot leaders chart the course of negotiations and - through consensus of their members - make the decisions on priorities. At the national and international level, our highest priority is to help pilot leaders at different carriers visualize favorable contract patterns across the industry and provide the resources to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession. Contracts that focus solely on self-interests will inevitably lower the high standards that this union has established for eight decades and in the end hurt all of us."
This should put to rest the myth that local leaders do the negotiating and decide their own contracts. I'm posting this on the DPA thread as well for those here that don't know about it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Gloopy
Carl
Maybe that is good news and what he really means by that is he intends to withhold signature on any PWA that does not contain adequate gains all around, including scope recapture. That would certainly be for the greater good, right? I'm sure that's what he meant...
Guys,
This is great news, maybe ALPA will start pushing for higher Pilot entry standards - sort of like Doctors and Lawyers do. You know what would be a great start, lets see, Hmmmm, how about an Airline Transport Rating (ATP) to act as an Airline Transport Pilot? Short of that, how about at least raising the minimum hours required to 1500?
Either of these measures would be a great start to enable us " .... to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession."
It would really help the connection Pilots raise their compensation levels which would be good for the whole industry. Just thinking about this plan is giving me a whole new respect for the ALPA long term strategy for the Profession.
I think that I am going to, huh,
"Whats that you say?"
"ALPA is against the 1500 hour rule?"
"Surely you are mistaken - I cant think of a better way to help elevate the whole profession from the bottom up."
"Well, ALPA is not really against the proposed 1500 hour rule, that would be a disastrous position to take with the DPA effort picking up momentum. Lets just say that ALPA supports the proposed rule, but with enough loopholes to gut it and seriously water it down."
"Yes, we wouldn't want regional costs to go up as the spokesmen for the regional airline associational has said would happen if the proposed 1500 hour rule went into affect."
"Well thats true, rising costs could be bad for Pilots."
"Specifically, what costs would go up?"
"Pilot salaries at the regionals."
"But, isn't that the......., Oh crap, I give up, nevermind."
Scoop
[
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I've been suspicious for some time now about ALPA national's agenda. Those suspicions were erased today by the latest Air Line Pilot magazine. The following is part of an interview of Capt Moak on page 12:
ALPA staff: What do you think are or should be ALPA's highest priorities in collective bargaining? Contract enforcement? Safety? Security?
Capt Moak: "...Local pilot leaders chart the course of negotiations and - through consensus of their members - make the decisions on priorities. At the national and international level, our highest priority is to help pilot leaders at different carriers visualize favorable contract patterns across the industry and provide the resources to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession. Contracts that focus solely on self-interests will inevitably lower the high standards that this union has established for eight decades and in the end hurt all of us."
This should put to rest the myth that local leaders do the negotiating and decide their own contracts. I'm posting this on the DPA thread as well for those here that don't know about it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Gloopy
Carl
Maybe that is good news and what he really means by that is he intends to withhold signature on any PWA that does not contain adequate gains all around, including scope recapture. That would certainly be for the greater good, right? I'm sure that's what he meant...
Guys,
This is great news, maybe ALPA will start pushing for higher Pilot entry standards - sort of like Doctors and Lawyers do. You know what would be a great start, lets see, Hmmmm, how about an Airline Transport Rating (ATP) to act as an Airline Transport Pilot? Short of that, how about at least raising the minimum hours required to 1500?
Either of these measures would be a great start to enable us " .... to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession."
It would really help the connection Pilots raise their compensation levels which would be good for the whole industry. Just thinking about this plan is giving me a whole new respect for the ALPA long term strategy for the Profession.
I think that I am going to, huh,
"Whats that you say?"
"ALPA is against the 1500 hour rule?"
"Surely you are mistaken - I cant think of a better way to help elevate the whole profession from the bottom up."
"Well, ALPA is not really against the proposed 1500 hour rule, that would be a disastrous position to take with the DPA effort picking up momentum. Lets just say that ALPA supports the proposed rule, but with enough loopholes to gut it and seriously water it down."
"Yes, we wouldn't want regional costs to go up as the spokesmen for the regional airline associational has said would happen if the proposed 1500 hour rule went into affect."
"Well thats true, rising costs could be bad for Pilots."
"Specifically, what costs would go up?"
"Pilot salaries at the regionals."
"But, isn't that the......., Oh crap, I give up, nevermind."
Scoop
[
Last edited by Scoop; 02-06-2011 at 08:29 AM.
02-06-2011 | 08:01 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Well done, Scoop! Spot on.
02-06-2011 | 08:16 AM
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
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From: 747-400 Captain
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler [IMGhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:PIHPzR8YFqb78M::www.weddingcollectibl es.com/images/P/706505%2520full.jpg&t=1&usg=AFrqEzeZUSFUb7QL13xjIk JQDZGZBX99vA]http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG]
I've been suspicious for some time now about ALPA national's agenda. Those suspicions were erased today by the latest Air Line Pilot magazine. The following is part of an interview of Capt Moak on page 12:
ALPA staff: What do you think are or should be ALPA's highest priorities in collective bargaining? Contract enforcement? Safety? Security?
Capt Moak: "...Local pilot leaders chart the course of negotiations and - through consensus of their members - make the decisions on priorities. At the national and international level, our highest priority is to help pilot leaders at different carriers visualize favorable contract patterns across the industry and provide the resources to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession. Contracts that focus solely on self-interests will inevitably lower the high standards that this union has established for eight decades and in the end hurt all of us."
This should put to rest the myth that local leaders do the negotiating and decide their own contracts. I'm posting this on the DPA thread as well for those here that don't know about it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Gloopy
Carl
Maybe that is good news and what he really means by that is he intends to withhold signature on any PWA that does not contain adequate gains all around, including scope recapture. That would certainly be for the greater good, right? I'm sure that's what he meant...
Guys,
This is great news, maybe ALPA will start pushing for higher Pilot entry standards - sort of like Doctors and Lawyers do. You know what would be a great start, lets see, Hmmmm, how about an Airline Transport Rating (ATP) to act as an Airline Transport Pilot? Short of that, how about at least raising the minimum hours required to 1500?
Either of these measures would be a great start to enable us " .... to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession."
It would really help the connection Pilots raise their compensation levels which would be good for the whole industry. Just thinking about this plan is giving me a whole new respect for the ALPA Strategic long term strategy for the Profession.
I think that I am going to, huh,
"Whats that you say?"
"ALPA is against the 1500 hour rule?"
"Surely you are mistaken - I cant think of a better way to help elevate the whole profession from the bottom up."
"Well, ALPA is not really against the proposed 1500 hour rule, that would be a disastrous position to take with the DPA effort picking up momentum. Lets just say that ALPA supports the proposed rule, but with enough loopholes to gut it and seriously water it down."
"Yes, we wouldn't want regional costs to go up as the spokesmen for the regional airline associational has said would happen if the proposed 1500 hour rule went into affect."
"Well thats true, rising costs could be bad for Pilots."
"Specifically, what costs would go up?"
"Pilot salaries at the regionals."
"But, isn't that the......., Oh crap, I give up, nevermind."
Scoop
[
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler [IMGhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:PIHPzR8YFqb78M::www.weddingcollectibl es.com/images/P/706505%2520full.jpg&t=1&usg=AFrqEzeZUSFUb7QL13xjIk JQDZGZBX99vA]http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG]
I've been suspicious for some time now about ALPA national's agenda. Those suspicions were erased today by the latest Air Line Pilot magazine. The following is part of an interview of Capt Moak on page 12:
ALPA staff: What do you think are or should be ALPA's highest priorities in collective bargaining? Contract enforcement? Safety? Security?
Capt Moak: "...Local pilot leaders chart the course of negotiations and - through consensus of their members - make the decisions on priorities. At the national and international level, our highest priority is to help pilot leaders at different carriers visualize favorable contract patterns across the industry and provide the resources to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession. Contracts that focus solely on self-interests will inevitably lower the high standards that this union has established for eight decades and in the end hurt all of us."
This should put to rest the myth that local leaders do the negotiating and decide their own contracts. I'm posting this on the DPA thread as well for those here that don't know about it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Gloopy
Carl
Maybe that is good news and what he really means by that is he intends to withhold signature on any PWA that does not contain adequate gains all around, including scope recapture. That would certainly be for the greater good, right? I'm sure that's what he meant...
Guys,
This is great news, maybe ALPA will start pushing for higher Pilot entry standards - sort of like Doctors and Lawyers do. You know what would be a great start, lets see, Hmmmm, how about an Airline Transport Rating (ATP) to act as an Airline Transport Pilot? Short of that, how about at least raising the minimum hours required to 1500?
Either of these measures would be a great start to enable us " .... to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession."
It would really help the connection Pilots raise their compensation levels which would be good for the whole industry. Just thinking about this plan is giving me a whole new respect for the ALPA Strategic long term strategy for the Profession.
I think that I am going to, huh,
"Whats that you say?"
"ALPA is against the 1500 hour rule?"
"Surely you are mistaken - I cant think of a better way to help elevate the whole profession from the bottom up."
"Well, ALPA is not really against the proposed 1500 hour rule, that would be a disastrous position to take with the DPA effort picking up momentum. Lets just say that ALPA supports the proposed rule, but with enough loopholes to gut it and seriously water it down."
"Yes, we wouldn't want regional costs to go up as the spokesmen for the regional airline associational has said would happen if the proposed 1500 hour rule went into affect."
"Well thats true, rising costs could be bad for Pilots."
"Specifically, what costs would go up?"
"Pilot salaries at the regionals."
"But, isn't that the......., Oh crap, I give up, nevermind."
Scoop
[
Carl
02-06-2011 | 09:29 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Actually, that's not true. What I have said, and still believe, is that absent our fellow pilots doing their part instead of thumping their chests, it is unsustainable for Delta pilots pay rates to be 50+% above the industry average. We can be at the top, even some percentage above the next competitor, but not 50%.
PG:
could you please list each "competitor" that ALPA is considering to define industry average?
Will foreign carriers be added to industry average? Will Cargo carriers be included?
Last edited by johnso29; 02-06-2011 at 11:14 AM.
02-06-2011 | 09:38 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
I think the evidence is clear that Moak thinks any attempt to regain outsourced flying by the majors is a change in the status quo, and as such, will be fought by national.
But the main point is that Moak believes ALPA national has the right and the obligation to determine what a local's contract should be as it relates to the rest of the industry's "greater good." This is the most revealing and troubling part. He unwittingly lays out the truth for everyone to see. The truth is that local leadership does not negotiate their own contracts. ALPA national provides all the money and the vast majority of the resources. Lee just said that ALPA national's highest priority in collective bargaining is to use those resources at national to ENSURE that local contracts benefit the "greater good."
Carl
But the main point is that Moak believes ALPA national has the right and the obligation to determine what a local's contract should be as it relates to the rest of the industry's "greater good." This is the most revealing and troubling part. He unwittingly lays out the truth for everyone to see. The truth is that local leadership does not negotiate their own contracts. ALPA national provides all the money and the vast majority of the resources. Lee just said that ALPA national's highest priority in collective bargaining is to use those resources at national to ENSURE that local contracts benefit the "greater good."
Carl
There are plenty of ways ALPA could use its' President's Office for the mutual gain and benefit of ALL ALPA MEMBERS:
1. Require outsourced flying be performed by ALPA members:
A. Makes our union more relevantB. Makes our union more relevant (part II)C. Set minimums on labor (both in areas of qualifications and pay) for outsourced flying.
2. Teach ALPA membership the benefits of real unity & return to our core strengths:- Airlines like SkyWest & Republic have grown and received flying by virtue of simply being non ALPA. ALPA will never win an organizing drive on these properties as long as the pilots there perceive a real benefit to being non-ALPA in the form of rapid growth and seniority.
- In contrast, ALPA airlines with leading contracts have been destroyed, ie Comair.
- If threatened with the loss of flying (non renewal of contracts with non ALPA airlines) airlines like SkyWest would fall in line instantly. They would see the value in ALPA membership (if you have 'em by the short hairs, their hearts and minds will follow) More effective than Pizza Parties at growing our union.
- By controlling and coordinating bargaining at the National level, efforts could be made to end whipsaw of regional against regional and currently regional against mainline.
- Management has ONE Bargaining Agent for labor - ALPA has a monopoly on pilot labor
- Make ending outsourcing a long term strategic goal of our union.
- Return the Constitution and Bylaws to their pre 1990's versions of "alter ego" and "operational integration."
- Pursue mergers within airline brands as a way of ending alter ego replacement of labor while improving ALPA members careers. (non ALPA members are not our concern)
- Use ALPA National's resources to investigate and develop new ways to bridge labor across operating certificates and corporate ownership. For instance, as long as the jet flies with Delta code, it is flown by Delta pilot in good standing with ALPA.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-06-2011 at 09:48 AM.
02-06-2011 | 10:00 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
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Actually, that's not true. What I have said, and still believe, is that absent our fellow pilots doing their part instead of thumping their chests, it is unsustainable for Delta pilots pay rates to be 50+% above the industry average. We can be at the top, even some percentage above the next competitor, but not 50%.
Last edited by johnso29; 02-06-2011 at 11:14 AM.
02-06-2011 | 10:32 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,642
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From: right for a long, long time
Carl, Ending alter ego is consistent with benefiting the "greater good." But, let us not get political speech writing confused with reality. For an example you need not look any further than the fact our largest and most capable permitted jets are being operated at ALPA busting Tran States' Compass division. Those were pilots represented by our MEC at the date of corporate closure. Those were our jobs. Those should be our jets and our pilots. Compass pilots should have a Delta seniority number. That is the reality. Now the politics ... .
There are plenty of ways ALPA could use its' President's Office for the mutual gain and benefit of ALL ALPA MEMBERS:
1. Require outsourced flying be performed by ALPA members:If we build a strong enough foundation in unity, there is no limit to what we could build on top of it.
There are plenty of ways ALPA could use its' President's Office for the mutual gain and benefit of ALL ALPA MEMBERS:
1. Require outsourced flying be performed by ALPA members:
A. Makes our union more relevantB. Makes our union more relevant (part II)C. Set minimums on labor (both in areas of qualifications and pay) for outsourced flying.
2. Teach ALPA membership the benefits of real unity & return to our core strengths:- Airlines like SkyWest & Republic have grown and received flying by virtue of simply being non ALPA. ALPA will never win an organizing drive on these properties as long as the pilots there perceive a real benefit to being non-ALPA in the form of rapid growth and seniority.
- In contrast, ALPA airlines with leading contracts have been destroyed, ie Comair.
- If threatened with the loss of flying (non renewal of contracts with non ALPA airlines) airlines like SkyWest would fall in line instantly. They would see the value in ALPA membership (if you have 'em by the short hairs, their hearts and minds will follow) More effective than Pizza Parties at growing our union.
- By controlling and coordinating bargaining at the National level, efforts could be made to end whipsaw of regional against regional and currently regional against mainline.
- Management has ONE Bargaining Agent for labor - ALPA has a monopoly on pilot labor
- Make ending outsourcing a long term strategic goal of our union.
- Return the Constitution and Bylaws to their pre 1990's versions of "alter ego" and "operational integration."
- Pursue mergers within airline brands as a way of ending alter ego replacement of labor while improving ALPA members careers. (non ALPA members are not our concern)
- Use ALPA National's resources to investigate and develop new ways to bridge labor across operating certificates and corporate ownership. For instance, as long as the jet flies with Delta code, it is flown by Delta pilot in good standing with ALPA.
On top of that, it would require the "better"(i.e. mainline pilots) to be willing to slum it and accept the obviously "lesser" (i.e. regional pilots) to share cockpits and crew lounges....The privileged don't associate with the commoners....You didn't know that?
BTW, I agree 100% with your type of strategic goal setting, theory of unity, and direction. Not enough think like that however.....
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