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Old 04-20-2011 | 11:32 AM
  #64281  
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
ah, there is something there missing here that would drive home their point. They show annual salary but that creates a misnomer in peoples mind "what they get paid $117k and complain?"

what they need to publish is 2010 pay, 2000 pay, 1990 pay, 1980 pay, 1970 pay and 1960 pay all adjusted for inflation.

That would drive home the point about the stress level because of the decline in pay quicker than nick fairley can drive a quarterback into the ground! Oh wait, wrong thread. Let me go back to my other thread. :d
this! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Talk about stress level! Not many things in life are more stressful than having a career, for which you've worked very hard and you and your family have sacrificed greatly for, suddenly cut in HALF with no expectation or apparent plan to ever recover.

I had something happen a few years ago that I think illustrates this point very well. It was just after we had taken the full 42% pay cut and had our pension terminated. Most of us were in a daze. Because of our experience and professionalism, we pressed on and operated our flights safely. But make no mistake, this was a HUGE distraction and very difficult for most of us to shake off. It was about this time that Delta came out with the policy of having to brief the "highest threat." During that time, I used to brief that the highest threat was the stress and distraction of having our pay cut by 42% and our retirement decimated. Unless there was some really obvious threat for that leg, there was no doubt that this was indeed "the highest threat."

So here's the story...

We were taking off on runway 30 at IAD. 10,000' runway on a nice day with a light passenger load. At about 60 knots on the takeoff roll, the right engine just flamed out. No big deal, really. We were barely just starting to roll. Plenty of room to leisurely stop with almost 10,000' of runway remaining. We taxied clear of the runway and back to the gate.

We hadn't been back to the gate for more than about 10 minutes, when the phone rang. It was the duty pilot wanting to know if we, as a crew, were "okay to continue" flying for the day. This is standard Delta policy whenever anything like this happens. They call to ask this. And I presume the reason they call to ask this is two fold. 1) They want to make sure no one is shaken up too much and/or too distracted to safely and effectively perform their duties. and 2) They want to cover their butts legally.

So... this brings up an interesting question. Which is more stressful and distracting? 1) Losing an engine at 60 knots on a takeoff roll on a 10,000' runway on a nice day with a light load? or 2) Having the career you've worked so hard for and sacrificed so much for suddenly destroyed?

I certainly know which one I think is WAY more stressful and distracting!

Last edited by DAL 88 Driver; 04-20-2011 at 11:50 AM.
Old 04-20-2011 | 11:44 AM
  #64282  
Carl Spackler's Avatar
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Originally Posted by tsquare
We have a Facebook page? Don't tell me I have to join Facebook...

I'll be one of your facebook friends. It'll be a lot of laughs. Maybe you could come over and hang out. I don't get a lot of visitors you know.






Carl
Old 04-20-2011 | 11:48 AM
  #64283  
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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Hockey44,

Great question: "Why are there holes in our contract?"

Again, you need to consider why these holes exist in our contract. They are not accidental. Our scope language was REMOVED on purpose.

Lee Moak used to put on a presentation explaining how outsourcing improved profitability which made for better Delta pilot contracts. Outsourcing is more profitable if you have more vendors competing and driving the price down. Contractual provisions were REMOVED to increase cost competition among DCI carriers and to facilitate the sale of Delta's subsidiaries (ASA, Comair, Compass, Mesaba, etc).

DOH!!

Son of a *****!

Carl
Old 04-20-2011 | 11:54 AM
  #64284  
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
That is absolutely true. There is no violation of our scope after the April 07, 2011 ruling from the NMB. For those who haven't read it: http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2011/38n039.pdf

But that's because the April 7th ruling was about a representation issue.

Now the NMB needs to be asked- is RAH a single transportation system? Not just when it comes to representation of pilots, but is it STS? What's wrong with asking?

Background:
On October 4, 2010, the IBT filed an application alleging a representation dispute involving the craft or class of Pilots.
The NMB says the issue was:
Are RA, Shuttle, Chautauqua, Frontier, Lynx, and the former Midwest operating as a single transportation system? If so, what are the representation consequences?
The Board says:
The Board finds a single transportation system only when there is substantial integration of operations, financial control, and labor and personnel functions. Further, the Board has noted that a substantial degree of overlapping ownership, senior management, and Boards of Directors is critical to finding a single transportation system.

(as to RAH):
  • All subsidiaries are wholly owned by RAH, but each holds its own FAA operating certificate.
  • Management between the Carriers has already been integrated.
  • The same Board of Directors and senior management team oversee all of the Carriers. For example, Bryan Bedford is the Chairman and CEO for all of the Carriers. He is also the President of RA, Shuttle, Chautauqua, and Frontier.
  • ...labor relations are often indicia of single transportation systems. See Atlas Air, Inc./Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc., 35 NMB 259, 269 (2008) (single system found in spite of separate operating certificates due in part to substantial overlap among Boards of Directors and senior managers).
  • There has been significant progress towards an operational merger for the craft or class of Pilots. RAH, on behalf of its subsidiaries Chautauqua, Shuttle, RA, Midwest, Frontier and Lynx, entered into an agreement with its Pilots’ representatives on November 3, 2009 to integrate the Pilots’ seniority.
  • RAH exercises control over the management, labor relations, and human resources functions of all of its subsidiaries including Pilot recruitment.
  • Further, RAH holds out to the public that the Carriers are part of a consolidated entity as shown at its website, Republic Airways.
  • While RAH’s business model is one that includes both “fixed-fee” and “branded” operations, its operations are consolidated and “branded” operations are commonly-scheduled under the Frontier brand.
    • For example, the route map available at Frontier and RAH’s websites provides that: “Flights are operated by Frontier, Lynx, Republic Airways, or Chautauqua Airlines.” In addition, RAH’s subsidiaries are presented on a consolidated basis for both financial reporting and operating performance. See Quarterly Financial Statement, August 9, 2010; September 2010 Press Release “Republic Airways Reports September 2010 Traffic."
  • The subsidiaries are held out as one carrier on RAH’s website, and the employees are subject to the same operational policies and most labor relations policies (subject to differences until all employee crafts or classes are subject to the same CBAs).
  • Prospective Chautauqua, RA, Shuttle, Frontier, and Lynx employees all apply to jobs through one universal forum, at RJET.com. While prospective employees can go to Frontier’s website, if they want to explore employment opportunities they are re-directed to RAH’s central job listing page.
Precedence:
In Flagship Airlines, Inc., 22 NMB 331 (1995), a case with facts very similar to those present here, the Board found a single transportation system to exist primarily because of the significant degree of “common control” exercised by Eagle over its subsidiaries. Id. at 426. Eagle wholly-owned and centrally controlled the four subsidiaries; there existed interlocking boards of directors, common corporate officers, and common management; the carriers held themselves out to the public as a single carrier, and flight schedules and reservations were integrated; and while most employee groups were represented by separate organizations/CBAs, Eagle handled most other labor relations issues for the carriers. Id. at 426-30.
See also USAir, Inc. and Shuttle, Inc. d/b/a USAir Shuttle, 19 NMB 388 (1992) (single transportation system found where USAir did not own Shuttle but had a five year contract which gave extensive operational control over carriers management, labor relations, and marketing. There was no common Board or officers, but Shuttle’s officers consulted with USAir on all management decisions. Flight crews were not integrated).

There are a number of prior Board determinations finding a single transportation system in the absence of a single FAA operating certificate. In Atlas Air, Inc. and Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc., 35 NMB 259, 269 (2008), the Board found a single transportation system even though the carriers had separate operating certificates and separate crews. Atlas and Polar did not combine their routes or schedules; and the carriers’ equipment did not have conformed markings, uniform insignia, or logos. Id. at 267.
However, there was substantial overlap among the carrier’s boards of directors, labor relations and operations were centralized, employees were cross-utilized, and there were plans in place for an integrated seniority list and CBA. Id. at 269. See also Continental Airlines/Continental Express, 20 NMB 326 (1993) (Board found a single system as a result of common control, common ownership, shared common officers, centralized management and labor relations; in spite of the fact the carriers had separate FAA operating certificates); Midway Airlines, Inc., 14 NMB 447 (1987) (two carriers which existed as separate corporate entities and operated under separate FAA operating certificates were nevertheless, based on their combined operations, found to be a single transportation system).
The National Mediation Board therein found:
The Board finds that RAH exercises sufficient common control over its subsidiaries, Chautauqua, Shuttle, RA, Frontier, and Lynx to form a single transportation system for representation purposes.

Following the multi-step transaction that integrated the former Midwest into Frontier and RA, the Carriers all operate with individual operating certificates; however the other factors support a single system finding. Upon the effective date under the arbitrator’s award, all Pilots will be working under one seniority list. Management and Boards of Directors are overlapping, and RAH has total operational control over its subsidiaries’ operations. Further, Chautauqua, Shuttle, RA, Frontier, and Lynx are held out as a single carrier of affiliates on RAH’s website and presented on a consolidated basis for both financial reporting and operational performance.

Based upon the application of the principles cited above to the facts established by the investigation, the Board finds that the Carriers are operating as a single transportation system (Republic Airlines et al./Frontier) for the craft or class of Pilots.
The NMB Concluded:
The Board finds that Chautauqua, Shuttle, RA, Frontier, and Lynx are operating as a single transportation system (Republic Airlines et al./Frontier) for the craft or class of Pilots for representation purposes under the RLA.

Forgot to Bid asks:
Am I crazy or does it just seem someone needs to apply to the NMB with the question: is Chautauqua, Shuttle, RA, Frontier and Lynx operating as a single transportation system. < period. ?

ALPA already was a part of this saying that Midwest needed to be included in the STS. But now when it comes to scope, oh no, totally different. That mutli-certificate thing works really well Mr. Keyboard Worrier.

I honestly want to hear what ALPA is going to say, but really, if 12,000 Delta pilots want DCI ended then Delta Air Line Pilots Association stance should be- end it.

If we see the warning signs of what RAH is up to as a precursor to others following suit as ma Delta attempts to change CPA's to higher risk contracts for the DCI's, then by all means, I want our union to apply to the NMB to find RAH an STS and have them kicked out of DCI.

Problem is, DALPA will need to be the one to ask the NMB that question and follow through with a grievance. Sadly, they will do neither.

Carl
Old 04-20-2011 | 11:57 AM
  #64285  
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Originally Posted by buzzpat
Which is why I said "if you don't need a word processor type application."
or e-mail...
Old 04-20-2011 | 12:01 PM
  #64286  
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I can type just fine on my Ipad. I don't carry a laptop anymore because of the Ipad. It has 10 hrs of battery life. I can load an entire season of Mad Men and True Blood on it. Best thing is it doesn't have to come out of the bag for security.
Old 04-20-2011 | 12:23 PM
  #64287  
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Originally Posted by Molon Labe
Does any body know how to get LMS to work with an apple product? Am a guest and another house and have initial trng on a new ac. (actually old friend ac) anyway the LMS won't run on the brand new apple....Any thoughts?
Are you talking about the CDs or the online LMS? I went through initial last year and the systems CD did not run on my Mac, but everything else did. All the CDs I've been getting lately run just fine, so I don't know if that is still a problem. If it is, you are stuck using a PC for that disc (or putting Windows on your Mac).

The only way to reliably access Deltanet and its portals (LMS being one) on a Mac is through Firefox. It's free and works great. However, there has been a problem with version 4 and I don't know if it is fixed yet. I'm still using version 3.6.16.
Old 04-20-2011 | 12:33 PM
  #64288  
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Originally Posted by satchip
I can type just fine on my Ipad. I don't carry a laptop anymore because of the Ipad. It has 10 hrs of battery life. I can load an entire season of Mad Men and True Blood on it. Best thing is it doesn't have to come out of the bag for security.
Me too...love my iPad.
Old 04-20-2011 | 12:36 PM
  #64289  
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Originally Posted by Pielut
Lived in Atlanta a long time, it is getting ridiculous, nothing but shootings and car jackings in downtown lately. I hope somebody finds these pieces of **** and does something really bad to them. Don't ride MARTA through downtown, the way things are going lately you are just asking for trouble.
Does Georgia have a concealed handgun law like Texas? Might help in this case.
Old 04-20-2011 | 12:39 PM
  #64290  
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Originally Posted by Roadkill
Hi,
Need some tech advice. Haven't bought a laptop in 10 years, or a new phone in almost 4 (Palm Treo). Coming back to the line after years away... Is there a consensus on what is the best computer/phone combination for airline pilot use right now? I don't have a good idea about these netbooks or the iPad.

I see folks posting about droid apps for the schedule, and about trying to do training on various laptops with problems...
-Looking for a system that will let me do Microsoft Outlook with seamless syncing to a phone, I use that for business a ton.
-I'd like a phone that lets me do most of my pilot stuff.
-I'd like a computer that's light, can watch a movie or do CD training stuff for upcoming Delta training, can run Outlook, and can browse web. Maybe read books. Don't need much else, nothing hi-powered I'd think needed.

Any good advice appreciated, need to buy within 2 weeks for training!
If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a MacBook Pro to do it all. I currently have a 6-year old Gateway laptop and an iPad to do what I need.
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