Well, this topic could go on forever. It started with someone complaining that there is no democracy because the reps don't follow the forum advice to the letter. My response was that there have been elections every year for the MEC and those are as democratic as they get. Everyone can run and everyone can vote. It then evolved into a discussion on whether or not the forum truly represented the will of the pilots. I contend that the forum only represents a small fraction of the pilots (people that post not lurk, remember we can't tell what the lurkers think) and that in general the forum does not represent the general wishes of the entire pilot group. While the issues are the same, the importance of each individual issue and the tactics used to achieve those goals are much different.

For instance, if you polled the forum, you would find that the majority expect an immediate 75% raise to C2K rates plus some inflation, plus some other factors. If you polled the general pilot group, then you would come up with a much different answer.

So my point is not that the forum folks don't have a vote, I have repeatedly said their vote is worth every other pilots. It is just there are many who think if they post 1,000 times their voice is 1,000 times more important that the rest of the pilots. Many of the tactics urged on by the forum crowd have been shown repeatedly to fail and I presented the case of the APA as an example of how badly they failed to produce even a penny of value for their pilots for four plus years. I also said that for an elected rep to truly represent their pilots, they need to get off the forum and go out and really contact their pilots, all of them, not just the ones that shout the loudest. Apparently, that is undemocratic also.

That is my whole point. It's difficult when guys like Carl take a simple statement and twist to try to mean something completely different or can't even read a simple statement and understand the clear meaning. That makes this whole conversation devolve into a twisted mess.

We have 12,000 pilots and only a small fraction ever post on this or the ALPA forum. The other 11,950 have a voice, they have a vote, and their opinions matter. Reps need to work hard to make sure they are getting the full picture of what their pilots want. If that offends someone then I am sorry.

Yes. He killed me with kindness and I feel bad. Alfa apologized to me twice when I don't think he had anything to apologize for. I've seen worse exchanges in Religious forums. Ok. I made that last part up, but you know what I mean. :D

Hey there. Someone out there must think you can read. I saw a book in your mailbox a while ago. How did you fool them? :D

Proof that New K is really an ALPA National big wig. Check out the stash!

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...p/IMG_0230.jpg

What happened to NewK's eye?

Alfa,

Thanks for the kind words and apology. I don't think you needed to apologize at all, though. We all are very opinionated on here and I expect a little gamesmanship in debates. That's why I loved what Carl did. It was very effective. But, I do remember the discussion we had a while ago about winning at all cost, so it does not surprise me that you did apologize. You are a good guy and I thank you for your union work.

But, I think you are wrong in your analysis of the sentiments of the pilot group. Believe it or not, I run across a lot of people who are sorely unhappy with the direction of ALPA and most of them are more adamant about it than me. A good 1/4 of the people I run into are pushing the DPA to the max. I get approached all the time about the DPA. I also get, text messages and emails. I see stickers all over the place. What might surprise you though is that I push back on the DPA talk. (Look at my post in the first few pages of the DPA thread.)

About 1/2 crucify ALPA worse than I ever have on here. But, I believe that the blame for our predicament should be placed where it belongs: us. We voted for the ALPA leadership and allowed them to do what they did. We voted in every one of these contracts that allow us to be paid so much less than Southwest and allows RAH and AK tofly routes that we should be flying. We continue to do so and it is up to us to change it. Forums provide an excellent medium for us to do that.

As far as the DPA, they have never explained to me how if we elected the same people we wouldn't get the same results. Unfortunately, I have a partial answer for them. ALPA is too political and its structure is screwed up. Many people, including myself have tried to volunteer for ALPA. Many of us have run for positions, and submitted well thought out ideas, only to be turned down. I ran to be on a couple of committees. I submitted ideas for the bankruptcy negotiations. I submitted ideas for the merger. So, as with many, I decided I had to do other things and am wrapped up in them right now. When I get done though, I'll be back and I'll be looking to make some serious changes to how things are done at DALPA and National ALPA.

Unless the DPA can come up with an answer to my question first. :D

Cough, cough. Nevermind. It's dirt. :D

Hey Buzz, Rep John Kline carried the football and he is now a Congressman. Why don't you run?

NewK,

I'll tell you what I think. And then I'll post a DPA FAQ that I think has some relevancy to your question.

I see a big part of the problem with DALPA is that (yes, even now) the agenda of the MEC Chairman and his administration is what's being followed. Like you said, it's become too political and the structure (while it's supposed to be "bottom up") is in reality "top down." We have elected some new reps who honestly want input from their pilots and fully intend to go forward with that input as their guide. Unfortunately, we also have a very disengaged, apathetic pilot group... so the input these reps get is very limited. What percentage of a council's pilots regularly communicate with their reps? I don't know the answer to that question, but I'll bet it is a shockingly low percentage. So... the input that these reps get may or may not match up with what you and I observe day in and day out flying the line. And absent a significant enough quantity of valid input, I think many times these reps end up falling in line with the agenda of the MEC Chairman and his administration. So it comes back to what you (I believe) very accurately stated... ALPA is too political and its structure is screwed up.

I think DPA has the potential to fix this in a couple of ways:
1) It removes the influence and conflict of interest from ALPA National (which I believe at least partially drives our MEC Chairman's agenda).
2) It removes one of the biggest reasons why individual line pilots are disengaged and apathetic. I think a new association with a compelling objective would motivate many in our pilot group to at the very least provide their input to their reps.

I see no reason why many of the same people who currently serve in ALPA could not serve in DPA. I have been told very directly by two different prominent DALPA officials that they would refuse to serve if DPA were elected. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way. And that's fine with me. If they feel that way, I wouldn't want them serving as I believe they are the ones who would put a "top down" agenda ahead of the "bottom up" structure we are supposed to have. Eliminate those folks... and I just don't think it's an issue that "the same people" would be serving in DPA.

Here's the FAQ that I think helps add some perspective to what I'm saying:
__________________________________________________ ___________
I am a current ALPA Rep or Volunteer, but I want to support DPA, what should I do?

DPA is first and foremost interested in doing what is best for Delta Pilots. If you are in an elected position, DPA feels that you have an obligation to serve the Delta Pilots in that capacity until your term expires or DPA is successful. You are free to submit an Authorization Card, but we ask that you continue to serve the Delta Pilots in your current position. Your membership in DPA will be kept confidential as always. If you are a current Committee volunteer and wish to join DPA, you are free to do so as well. When considering whether or not to resign your volunteer position, first consider whether or not your position is critical to the daily operations of providing service to Delta Pilots. If your volunteer position is a critical one such as Safety, DPA feels the Delta Pilot group will be better served if you remain there until the transfer to DPA leadership is complete. The expertise of previous committee members is already present in the DPA Member population. They will pave the way for you to transfer into the DPA structure after the election is complete. As we stand up these critical committees, expect DPA representatives to reach out to you for coordination and relationship building. We want you to be confident that your expertise will be welcomed after the transition. We also want you to begin to take steps to secure data and assets that belong to the Delta Pilots. If you are in a non-critical committee position, resigning your position is at your discretion. If you are being asked to perform support functions that you no longer agree with, it is probably in the best interests of Delta Pilots for you to resign and then jump in headfirst into building DPA. The recent resignations (Jan 2011) of the Pilot to Pilot Committee Chairman and Vice-Chairman are good examples of committee volunteer resignations that do not significantly damage service levels Delta Pilots are receiving at this time.

Again, make your decisions based on the framework of what is best for Delta Pilots. If you are unsure about whether or not you should resign, get in touch with us and we will help you analyze the situation. Thank you for your service to all Delta Pilots and we look forward to working with you in the months ahead!

What? And give up "The Dream?" And miss all the banter on APC?;)

Actually, mb some day. There's definitely a shortage of conservatives out here in CA and it comes up every so often. My wife would kill me though.:eek: