Democracy means sometimes you lose. If you are a Democrat or Republican you are either not happy with the House or the Senate, depending upon the color of your stripes. That is Democracy.

If your rep agrees with you and is in the minority, then what makes you think that a general election would have any different outcome? The MEC Chairman is not the leader of the union, he is the leader of the MEC Administration. The MEC sets policy direction and the Administration executes that policy. If both the MEC Chairman and the MEC are setting policy direction, then who wins, who decides? By having a clear chain of command:

Pilots >> MEC >> Chairman >> Committees

you always know who to hold accountable. If the committees aren't getting the job done, then the Chairman needs to give them a kick or find new guys. (exception, Negotiators and Merger Committee are elected) If the Chairman can't execute the policy of the MEC then he should be replaced. If the MEC doesn't follow the wishes of their pilots, then they should be recalled. That is how the chain of command works.

At the APA you had a situation where the Board wanted to move in one direction and the President wanted to move in the other. The result was gridlock and inaction. American now has spent 5 years in negotiations without a nickel to show for it. If they got 3% a year for those five years, their Captains would average another $25-30,000 a year more in compensation. If they matched Delta at 5% per year (4 pay, 1 DC) they would now make about $40,000 more per year. It's not a 51% raise but I doubt most pilots would turn their noses up at the 40K.

That my friend is the cost of gridlock. Despite the calls for "retro pay" they will never recover that lost money, maybe a fraction. Pilots should hold their reps accountable but they should avoid a situation where gridlock and inaction makes you forfeit the time value of money. You certainly don't want to be sitting in mid-2017 looking at your paycheck and seeing the same numbers you will see next January. I sure don't.

 

Alfa, you can be in the minority in congress and being in the right and have the majority backing of the nation. Inside the beltway is rarely seen as being an in touch group. As a republican I can say that many if not most republicans believe established republicans living for and inside the beltway as out of touch. outsiders with strong support come in most often as the minority.

That said, I have a hard time believing the MEC Chair is not in control of a lot more than just the MECs agenda. I think someone's analogy was it would be like only being allowed to vote for your House of Rep with the worthy candidates preapproved by the President and friends of the President and those Reps vote for the President. shock... the President wins. Or in our case, controls the agenda and the implementation an if you want to run on an agenda of change get read for all out hostility.

If you want to volunteer, have a great attendance record at ALPA functions, work on a committee, pay your dues and show yourself a ALPA team player than you can run with full approval. thats my experience at two different ALPA unions at two different carriers.

Gridlock may not have worked for the APA, but blame the pilots for that not the system. They had the right to vote for whoever they wanted. It's their call. That's freedom. That's self governance and it's a good thing in the long run. Otherwise, why have elections?

 

And when it comes time to vote on any TA, the sad truth is, the idiot's vote counts just as much as the "Informed and Aware" vote. Which is why our TA's always pass, about 70-30. 70% of the pilots just do not want to be bothered to actually invest the time and effort required to get off the couch and go to a MEC meeting, or get involved -enough- to bring any kind of a threat of rocking the boat to Management.

The most often heard excuse is, "Well, the MEC TOLD US TO VOTE FOR IT, so it MUST be good..." And they have no idea what they are voting for, that is, if they even vote. Then when I ask the MEC, "WHY did you tell us to vote YES to this POS??!!" they say, "Well, the pilots didn't tell us it was unacceptable, heck, they didn't even show up at the meeting, so we had to take this as it is...."The Best We Could Do"...(without more support from the Pilots!)

After the 70-30 Yes vote on POS 96 (our 1996 Piece of **** concessionary TA) I called the DALPA office to rant; "How could they be so STUPID as to vote YES for this??!!"

The MEC rep on the other end of the line, who agreed with me, said, "What did you think that rocking chair was for?" (refering to our new-hire interview process where we had to go see a shrink, who had a rocking chair for us to sit in)

It has been that way ever since the Delta pilots got the vote. (prior to 1996 we did not have membership ratification). Most of them are too busy golfing or greenslipping to show up at a MEC meeting and start yelling for restoration.

In the end, they get what they deserve, but fail to understand why. Democracy doesn't mean the Yes voters got it right, it just means there are more -uninformed- voters than people paying attention to what they are voting Yes to! Months later, when they find out, they say, "Hey the MEC didn't tell me about THAT, I wouldn't have voted YES if I had known that!" And then I ask them, "Well, how many MEC meetings did you go to?" They get real quiet.

I think that is going to be the biggest hurldle for any new DPA to over come. New Leadership? Fine, but they are still going to be leading the same sheeple. Until that changes, there will be no restoration. 30% hard working No Voters is not enough to overcome the lazy 70%.

 

Let me get this straight, if I don't vote the way you vote I'm "stupid,lazy.uninformed and a sheep". Not only me but 70% of the Delta pilots are that way. Have you ever thought that maybe 70% of the Delta pilots didn't agree with you and voted the way they wanted ? I think what you wrote is your opinion and I personally think it's a bunch of horse manure. Those same 70% will be uninformed again if the DPA thing ever comes to a vote because I'd be willing to bet that is the margin DPA looses by.

 

You know perfectly well that a good portion of that 70% voted yes because they were told it's a great contract vote yes.

 

The most often heard excuse is "Well, the MEC TOLD US TO VOTE FOR IT, so it MUST be good..."

Funny, I never heard anyone say anything like that....the paroxysm of the self absorbed to view those who disagree with them as lazy, stupid or uninformed is alive and well here.

 

Your analogy misses the mark, it's more like two football NFL teams(pilot groups) with their own coach (MEC), setting their own priorities and executing their own strategies to put their own team in the best position for success. There is one Commisioner (ALPA national) who ensures the rules (C&BLs, admin manual) are complied with and protecting the interests of the league (profession) from outside influences (cabotage, foreign ownership etc) from bringing the league down.

 

I love the irony in This statement.

 

No I don't know that. I am sure there is a percentage that will always vote yes but I don't think you Timbo or myself knows that number, I would like to think it is a small percentage.

 

Tsquare,

Telling PG to stick isn't productive - although he is usually WAY OFF BASE (and I don't think he'll ever come off that position) on his whole commuting is a choice position (Ask all our DFW commuters (or any of the other LARGE bases DAL has closed over the years)).

Like to add another perspective to this whole argument. While the decision to move/live in ATL has worked out for PG it has not/would not have been that way for everyone. When I was hired a move to ATL looked like it would have been a great move - until 9/11, my furlough for 4 years, etc. My staying in my home allowed me to survive my furlough. Quite frankly, I would have been SCREWED if I had moved to ATL as new hire. I have already been in 3 different bases (LAX twice) and have no idea where I will end up in 5 years so I elect to commute and not count on Delta keeping .... Fill in the blank ... base open and growing. Commuting is "sort of a choice" since our moving benefits suck and we can't always afford to move to where we're based. After 10 years my seniority still sucks so who knows where I'll end up next (like Buzzpat been going backwards in LAX for 3 years - at one time (2008) I was a senior lineholder (top 20%) there)).

YMMV