I hope I'm wrong. Just going off the last 5 trips. Keeping a tally. I see an enormous misunderstanding of just how much SWA pays. SWA is max pay with max days off. If you want long layovers to drink beer, it's called Stugart, bid it.

My question, these pilots seem to have little expectation. Is there any pro ALPA pilots here who want less than what equal pay for equal work with Southwest pilots? Are there any pro ALPA pilots who want 88/9 pay below SWA 717 pay? Any willing to talk about what they think is fair to demand?

Guys I fly with want SWA pay, but realize it may be tough to get the same schedules because SWA doesn't always fly through one hub. We seem to do FLA turns from ATL, and then up to ORD or BUF. SWA and now Airtran pilots will start in one hub, and then fly across the country with 5 stops to the next hub. Not the same model. But, we have premium passengers, who connect in hubs to fly to international cities, all with high fees.

If the SWA 717 rates are the same as their 737 rates, which in reality equal our 777 or 744 rates, I think we should be able to get a big raise at least. No 15% over 3 years crud. Educate your Captains, and remind them that SWA's 737 rates are equal to our large widebody rates, (even though they all average 105 trips per month or 105 hours with credit), and we have 32 or so 744s and 777s, while SWA alone (not counting Airtran's planes) has over 500 737s. How many more of their pilots make a lot more than our Widebody pilots? It's just amazing, and sad. Tell your LEC reps HECK NO.

Well, I'm not a pro alpa pilot, but I am a pilot.

Scope: Scope recapture, sunsets all in writing and firm. No open ended AK codeshare, quids in place for mainline growth. All int'l codeshare brings at least a 1 for 1 equivalent seat miles to DAL.

Pay: swa plus for the smallest jet in our fleet graduated upward. 415c limit in 401k's for every pilot making $125k plus, greenslips pay double, GSWC pays trip drop plus double trip flown. All flying over ALV pays 1.5. Specific holidays (Christmas, Tgiving, supebowl, etc.) pay double. 6.25 hrs per duty day.

Reserve: 5 hrs credit for each s/c. 6 s/c max per rolling 30 day period, reserves flying receive trip/duty rig guarantees, 24 off in seven at home (not base) not hotel. s/c fully biddable.

Vacation: identical to fedex.

I've mixed sections a little, but it was to put related things where they share a theme.

I agree with you whole heartedly, but have you asked your Reps what they think? I think you will be dissapointed to say the least. Most of the reps I talk to shake their heads. Bring up the almost $1 billion in bag fees last year, and they deflect it to say we need to pay down debt. You must keep writing your reps and tell them what you expect, and then tell your Captains and other FOs, and fill out that darn survey. As long as they don't dismiss it like the overwhelming votes against age 65, I think we will have a pretty good opener, as long as they follow the wishes of the masses.

I just flew with a captain who looked at the contract comparison and replied, "it looks like we're doing pretty good compared to the rest of the industry." He told me he expects less than a 5% raise per year.

So what's the thought on this possible former TWA pilots award? If ALPA comes for an assessment to cover an award, will that be the death of ALPA?

Hey Hockey,

Some industrial psychologists call this " fear of legitimacy ". Basicly, you don't feel like you deserve any more, so do not rock the boat.

We only receive what we negotiate, not what we deserve....but if we, as a group, don't feel as if we deserve more, why would a company negotiator ?

In Unity,
BG

I'll be perfectly honest. After I read the contract survey I had the exact same thought. My other thought, was "wow I'm glad I don't work at USAir". Man, they are getting spanked in nearly every category.

Just because we are doing better than (most of) our peers doesn't mean we shouldn't be shooting for large improvements though. I was mostly taken by how beaten down this career is, if our current contract is equal to or better than (most of) the other legacy carriers.

All that said, I think as the "premier global airline", we should be compensated as such. There's no reason we shouldn't be shooting for +1 in every category in that comparison. If we matched or exceeded FedEx and SWA in all 5 survey categories, I'd be pleased.

We need to keep reminding everyone we come into contact with, that the vast majority of that comparison is based on bankruptcy era contracts. Anything less than a hefty restoration will be a NO vote for me.

I'm still willing to give the process a chance. However, now that we've been educated on the negotiating environment/process I want to start hearing ideas of how we CAN achieve major contractual gains, not reasons why we shouldn't even ask.

FWIW, I attended the Section 6 roadshow in ATL last week and I did not get the feeling that any sort of negotiating platform has been decided, yet. The contract survey will be out in a month or so, and the collective desires of the pilot group will hopefully steer the course (as it's supposed to.) We'll see. :cool:

The only percent that matters is percent above SWA pay and scope.

They can debate it till the cows come home. If their "negotiations" (read throat ramming) fall apart based on their (lack of) understanding of the definition of those words, then it will go to arbitration where an arbiter probably won't care whether it is one or the other anyway... therefore my irrelevant comment.