Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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- - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1049962)

The opener can and should reflect the contract surveys put out by the pilots. If it does not then you have a valid point. You might however be quite surprised if you were allowed to read those surveys. When alone and thinking pilots tend to put down what they feel is reasonable and achievable.

When I'm alone, I put down the same thing I say when I'm in a crowd. We are all pretty much Type A personalities here and immune to peer pressure, right? Why would anyone need to change their thoughts when they are alone? :confused:

Are we going to be allowed to see the results of the surveys?

FYI: Just received 2 emails asking for support during the nominating process for the Council 1 LEC. Not sure if it appropriate to post here, so I won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1050106)

He means a MSP rep. (Not what he is implying, he is just stating a North Base, but what the reality is)

If so, then the perfect time to vote someone else in......

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 1050096)

Time for some more "voodoo economics".:rolleyes:

[Sigh] The current average MD-88/MD-90 rate for a 12 year Captain is $163/hour. Assuming the average MD-88/90 Captain flies MD-90's half the time (I'm being generous there) and gets paid for 80 hours per month (960 per year), that results in a W-2 of $156,480. It has been stated (and backed up by numerous examples) that the average SWA Captain makes over $230,000/year. To bring our 12 year MD-88/90 Captain up to just slightly over $230,000 will require a 50% increase to the current rate under the current circumstances.

Doesn't sound like "voodoo economics" to me. Sounds to me like pretty straightforward math. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1050047)

Give me the names of the DALPA guys who have told you they are willing to take less then SWA. I have not meet one. Everytime I have asked on here I get BS responses. Man I hope you're right.
I don't believe anyone on the DALPA forums has stated we will sacrifice the bottom 1500 guys. What I have seen posted is a simple fact. If we switched to the SWA contract today and staffed at the level of manning SWA uses we would have a large surplus of pilots....The form 10's for 2010 had Delta at 690 an hour and SWA at 698 within a buck or two. There are two reasons the pilot cost per block hour are so close. SW is more efficient and Delta has 3 and 4 man operations that skew the numbers in favor of SWA. Still even accounting for the 3 and 4 man operations are total pilot costs per block hour are not as different as many suggest and post on here.
When you go into negotiations and ask for SWA you need to be very careful. There could be lost of negative consequences. I for one don't think SWA has much relevance to Delta. I could believe that. That said, the 1500 pilots lost thing, I'd be curious if we could be so efficient so as to... maybe... possibly... make DCI that much expensive thus recapture scope? I really don't know, but if it was indisputable that by no means of measurement is DCI cost effective would they end DCI? Therein yes we could lose 1500 jobs but we could gain just as many if not more?
I for one am not willing to give up any work rules that would decrease manning. We already gave up 3000 jobs in work rules. We don't need to give up any more. Agreed. I have my beef with DALPA but on things like trip parking and so forth everyone seems to understand what it means for pilot numbers - especially on the high end.
When you look at SWA compensation you do however have to look at the total package and the final pilot block hour costs. I'm willing to look.
I want their hourly rate at a minimum however I want our retirement plan and work rules. That will put Delta costs well above SWA total block costs. I think Delta can afford it and my contract survey will reflect that. I like that.
Some will put they want total restoration and nothing less. Its a great goal but is it achievable in one contract. I don't think so. I'll be honest, I don't want a contract that's a target. I don't want something that is constantly under attack and then lost whether incrementally or completely. Making SWA pay = DAL M88 pay is a great way to make this all cloudy. Another way to do it is change up the methods by which we are paid. You look at SWA numbers and they're higher, but that doesn't paint the full picture. They are paid a lot of credit. Got a honest PM from a SWA pilot on this forum who just wanted to explain what his pay looked like... try $25K on 86 hours in 1 month with no funny business or vacation. But you wouldn't know it looking at their numbers and that's kind of the beauty of SWA's system is you can't compare apples to apples.
In fact I think that if we opened for that we assure ourselves of only 1 thing. We will work under the current contract for at least the next 5 years. Personally I think that a two step process will put a lot more money in my pocket and produce a higher quality of life. I would rather be working on our second contract in 2016 then still negotiating this one. I could depending on the situation and given what the economy will look like in 2012 be willing to try a two stepper.

I screwed with your post and then added my own thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1050107)

WHAT?????? slower please without all the cryptology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amish Pilot (Post 1050111)

If so, then the perfect time to vote someone else in......

I am telling you who he/she is referring to, not that they said it. I am not a MSP pilot and have not talked to their Reps in months. I will submit that I liked them when I had a chance to interact with them.

Everyone has been going around on this board not saying who it was that made this statement, and all I am telling you is what I heard was the source of that statement. I never tried to ask any of them directly.

It really is the responsibility of the MSP pilots to ask their reps where they stand. Election time is now, so there is no time like the present. Also the training council and LAX are up for LEC Rep elections.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver (Post 1050118)

Maybe he means "voodoo economics" in the sense that ALPA cannot achieve it. What they can get, once expectations have been lowered sufficiently, will be referred to as "trickle down".

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManager

Winner. Especially the reference to the recent CVG road show and the RH dog and pony act of spreading FUD. Fear a furlough of 1500 pilots if you ask for SWA pay/W2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 1050092)

There you go again...:mad:

That was never stated. Go read straight from the horses mouth on our forum. More DPA apologist lies.

Direct quote from the DALPA Comm Chair:

"I thought the explanation you received at the CVG road show yesterday was pretty complete. SWA pilots make a large W2 because they have a pay rate that is multiplied by a lot of hours. It was also explained that were we to eliminate the ALV and other constraints to obtain that kind of productivity here, we could probably kiss the bottom 1000-1500 guys goodbye."

Direct quote from RH:

"So what I said at the road show is that you should be careful what you wish for. If you want to generate higher W-2's by flying more hours, then you will run out of block hours when you get to the bottom of the list. That means fewer 747 Captains, fewer A330 Captains, all the way down the line until you lose the bottom 1000-1500 pilots."

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 1050092)

There you go again...:mad:

That was never stated. Go read straight from the horses mouth on our forum. More DPA apologist lies.

In regards to RH, did he, or did he not, state: SWA parity would require 1500 less pilots? True or false.

That, my DALPA acolyte, is planting FUD among the bottom 1500+ folks.

And for the record, not a DPA apologist. I would say more of a reform minded pilot that believes DALPA needs a reboot first and then a removal if that fails.

Fact is, ALPA will more than likely solve that by becoming irrelevant due to ongoing litigation and potential bankrupting damages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 1050108)

It would be stupid to publish the survey. Management would love to have the results. On some things there has to be trust. If you are saying that all the reps would get together and agree to lie about the survey to the pilots they represent then I guess your going to believe you were cheated. I don't know all the reps but I know enough to know their character and that will not happen.
Besides, If they published the results and its not what you want then you will just say they faked the publication.