Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-25-2012 | 03:47 PM
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This is the kind of stuff that leaves me scratching my head. What opportunity was passed up? You realize the company doesn't have to have us on board to acquire, merge or fragement, right?
Show me an example where your version of leverage worked...
Southwest and AirTran?
United and Continental? Their situation is almost completely analogous AND they were in Section 6 (CAL) when it happened.
America West and USAirways?
They ALL are exactly where they started. Where's the leverage of which you speak? Go back even farther in history, and the first time labor even heard about the deals was when they were publicly announced. Delta/Western is an example.
Management has workarounds. They don't get all the revenue and cost "synergies" by running two separate operations, but they get a boatload of labor savings. Even a profitable company like SWA only gave away the acquired airline's seniority...no cash. UAL/CAL would take over $350 million and 400 pilot jobs just to come up to the current DAL contract. In the UAL/CAL case management is learning to work around. In USAPA's case that's the only reason their company is profitable.
So again I ask, where was the leverage that we squandered?
Show me an example where your version of leverage worked...
Southwest and AirTran?
United and Continental? Their situation is almost completely analogous AND they were in Section 6 (CAL) when it happened.
America West and USAirways?
They ALL are exactly where they started. Where's the leverage of which you speak? Go back even farther in history, and the first time labor even heard about the deals was when they were publicly announced. Delta/Western is an example.
Management has workarounds. They don't get all the revenue and cost "synergies" by running two separate operations, but they get a boatload of labor savings. Even a profitable company like SWA only gave away the acquired airline's seniority...no cash. UAL/CAL would take over $350 million and 400 pilot jobs just to come up to the current DAL contract. In the UAL/CAL case management is learning to work around. In USAPA's case that's the only reason their company is profitable.
So again I ask, where was the leverage that we squandered?
Other folks think that for our cooperation and sacrifices we should of gotten more pay up front. I can't argue with that either. Our leverage, was that they needed us to get this merger done right (scope, codeshare allowances) and we gave those allowances for minimal pay increases and we still allowed more outsourcing.
Looking to the future most guys want job protections in regard to the JV's and codeshare. Not a repeat of a contract with minimal pay increases only to see more flying outsourced.
01-25-2012 | 03:52 PM
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From: Space Shuttle PIC
Many folks that I fly with believe that we left some low hanging fruit on the tree with LOA 19 and the Joint contract. Yes, the merger would of happened anyways, we all realize that. What would not of happened however is the mess that is our scope clause. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 255 70 seat RJ's would not of been allowed under our previous PWA. The Alaska codeshare would not of been allowed. No?
Other folks think that for our cooperation and sacrifices we should of gotten more pay up front. I can't argue with that either. Our leverage, was that they needed us to get this merger done right (scope, codeshare allowances) and we gave those allowances for minimal pay increases and we still allowed more outsourcing.
Looking to the future most guys want job protections in regard to the JV's and codeshare. Not a repeat of a contract with minimal pay increases only to see more flying outsourced.
Other folks think that for our cooperation and sacrifices we should of gotten more pay up front. I can't argue with that either. Our leverage, was that they needed us to get this merger done right (scope, codeshare allowances) and we gave those allowances for minimal pay increases and we still allowed more outsourcing.
Looking to the future most guys want job protections in regard to the JV's and codeshare. Not a repeat of a contract with minimal pay increases only to see more flying outsourced.
01-25-2012 | 03:59 PM
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From: 765A
01-25-2012 | 04:00 PM
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GET IT IN WRITING (and have attorneys outside of ALPA check the small print).
01-25-2012 | 04:18 PM
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Many folks that I fly with believe that we left some low hanging fruit on the tree with LOA 19 and the Joint contract. Yes, the merger would of happened anyways, we all realize that. What would not of happened however is the mess that is our scope clause. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 255 70 seat RJ's would not of been allowed under our previous PWA. The Alaska codeshare would not of been allowed. No?
The Alaska codeshare was already in the NWA CBA. The DAL PWA had allowances for Alaska also, but it was about 10% the size of the NWA piece. So not only was it (AS codeshare)allowed, it was feeding the NWA SEA pilot base. Since the JCBA the SEA pilot base has doubled in size.
Other folks think that for our cooperation and sacrifices we should of gotten more pay up front. I can't argue with that either. Our leverage, was that they needed us to get this merger done right (scope, codeshare allowances) and we gave those allowances for minimal pay increases and we still allowed more outsourcing.
So show me who got more pay up front. Better yet, show me somebody who got ANY pay up front.
I provide this little historical retrospective for situational awareness. It's the facts. You're free to have a different opinion, but lets at least start the discussion from where we actually were and where we actually are.
I want more. In the post bankruptcy era the traditional way to more hasn't worked for USAPA, UAL/CAL, AMR, or even FedEx. What's the definition of insanity again?
01-25-2012 | 04:18 PM
The Brown Dot +1
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From: 777B
Newk;
That's a mighty simple question with a very complex answer. Short answer is yes, anything is possible.
01-25-2012 | 04:33 PM
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I would vote yes to a 2 year contract with a 20 percent raise upfront and at least 5 percent raise after 12 months with no changes to our contract. The more I think about it, the more I think it's a good idea. I don't think the company will give us that much though. I said this a few pages back. Someone has to sign a new contract first. I don't want to wait for everyone else. We can lead the way, let the other airlines sign contracts, and then negotiate from there. 20 percent upfront is significant. I will vote no to anything that outsources any flying.
01-25-2012 | 04:52 PM
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From: 737A
I would vote yes to a 2 year contract with a 20 percent raise upfront and at least 5 percent raise after 12 months with no changes to our contract. The more I think about it, the more I think it's a good idea. I don't think the company will give us that much though. I said this a few pages back. Someone has to sign a new contract first. I don't want to wait for everyone else. We can lead the way, let the other airlines sign contracts, and then negotiate from there. 20 percent upfront is significant. I will vote no to anything that outsources any flying.
01-25-2012 | 04:52 PM
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From: 747-400 Captain
Carl
01-25-2012 | 04:54 PM
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From: 737n/FO
I would vote yes to a 2 year contract with a 20 percent raise upfront and at least 5 percent raise after 12 months with no changes to our contract. The more I think about it, the more I think it's a good idea. I don't think the company will give us that much though. I said this a few pages back. Someone has to sign a new contract first. I don't want to wait for everyone else. We can lead the way, let the other airlines sign contracts, and then negotiate from there. 20 percent upfront is significant. I will vote no to anything that outsources any flying.
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