"Appropriate" is something significantly more than 40% less than what we were making in 2004 prior to the pay cuts.

It was always conventional wisdom that the SWA pilots made a lot less than we did. In fact, even today, when you just look at their pay rates compared to ours it doesn't appear they make THAT much more than we do. Yet their average Captain makes over $230K/year and their average F/O makes over $140K/year. And they don't appear to work any more days (maybe even fewer days) than we do. It's the combination of their pay rates and work rules that get this result.

I'm thinking they never did make THAT much less than we did. We just didn't understand (or pay attention to) how they are paid. I certainly know they never took a 42% pay cut and then never made any significant progress toward restoring that buying power (like we did/have).

What management has allowed to transpire with regard to our pay and outsourcing our jobs over the past decade shows a clear lack of respect for us. I really don't see how one can interpret that any other way.

All true on the revenue equation but the longevity vs. position is all historical. When I was a new hire in 2001 it was 15 months to Express Capt. and 4 years to 88 Captain in NYC based on our growth. Purple guys could and did bail back then to come to us because of our superior pay and advancement. It's not that you won't have a great career there. But you are looking at historical vs. future unknown trends when citing career advancement.

disregard....

I can tell you exactly why: to a small degree, the nightime schedules; to a much larger degree, their retirement.

None of us salivate at the thought of flying all night. Pre 9/11, that's all FX did. Post 9/11, thanks to their US Mail contract, they do tons of banker's hours flying. Having spent a number of years in a FX crashpad in MEM, I can speak with some authority on that.

FX has always paid more than the majors but their retirement plan wasn't as lucrative. Pre-9/11 (more accurately, pre-BK) you could have a very good living at the majors and a great retirement, courtesy of the airline. Today, all of us are essentially on our own to make our retirements work. The playing field has been leveled. Quite simply, in today's airline world, it all boils down to income and lifestyle.

My 5-year, 757/FO-on-reserve FX roommate made more than I did as a 12+ year DC-9 captain. He also did a fair amount of the late night stuff.

I agree with the last sentence. Pending the outcome of this contract, I think a lot of junior guys will look to bail. The real question is: Do they wait?

The problem with this industry is its cyclical nature. Right now, UPS/FDX are considered at the top, but there was a time when DHL paid their pilots better than those two.

I've flown with several here who started at UPS or went there during a furlough and to come back. At the time, it looked like the right decision. Do they regret it now? Some yes, because they'd be further ahead financially. Some no, because the type of flying and QOL.

For the last 10 years or so, Southwest has enjoyed that same exulted status but I believe that their day in the sun is waning. Ten years from now, we'll probably talk about JetBlue in the same way we talk about Southwest today.

I also know of pilots who were hired here and then jumped ship to go to UA or AA. At the time, those were the companies to be at. However, almost every one of them would be have been better off (financially and seniority wise) if they had stayed at DAL.

I'm glad to be at DAL. Of the legacies remaining, I have the highest hopes that our company will emerge the best and the strongest. That doesn't mean I think things are perfect. Far from it. But looking at where things are at and the way things are trending, DAL is the place for me.

I know of a few that are thinking of bailing to either FDX/UPS or Emirates or Asia contract flying. It seems the more mgmt brags about how great our pilot group is, i have the warm and fuzzy feeling they're just sharpening the knives and see how much blood they can wring out of us.

This company is not the same as pre-BK, where employees feel the need to attach to the company and help it grow. It's evident in our customer service, and in how we treat our colleagues. And it will show up in our contract negotiations. Democracy will be at its best, the majority of the pilot group will vote in a TA, whereas the minority will have no say. Let's hope the majority of us vote to improve on SCOPE first!

Agree completely. I've just grown to be extremely cynical about the motives and/or effectiveness of surveys. I'll eventually get around to doing it, but I expect whoever is responsible for it will massage the results to prove the point he intended to prove all along, no matter what we write in the free text spaces.

Apparently, those jobs are fairly easy to get. Had a Colgan jumpseater a short time ago who said "lots" of regional FOs are doing exactly that. It takes a special sort of person who can live with that type of job (and most of us are not that person), but if you are, it could really pay off while you wait for things to sort themselves out stateside.

The biggest problem those guys will face is the attitude adjustment necessary to leave a high-paying foreign contract to come back to probation wages.

Who wants to fly night cargo for an entire career? I have a few good friends at FedEx and they HATE it. They love the paycheck and stability but absolutely hate the job. A career of night flying subtracts many years off of a pilots life. They can have it. I think Deltas flying is far superior to what FedEx has to offer. To each their own.

Yeah, because flying for Delta we don't get back to back red eyes or backside of the clock flying. :rolleyes:

My father retired from Fed Ex. There is enough diversity to their operation that you get what you bid. Being junior isn't great shakes anywhere, but at least at FedEx they have not outsourced so much that any of their pilots have enjoyed being junior for more than ten years.