Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1160258)

No one knows what Delta got our 900's for. We are told that was also a very good deal. We also know there are 30 options and likely further announcements coming.

I'd bet we paid a similar amount and with RA's perference for proven quantities, now we can fully appreciate the problem Bombardier is having selling a jet which should be a no brainer.


It would be interesting to know what it costs Boeing to build a 737NG. I'd venture a guess that profit margins are slim, but then again, Boeing is approaching automotive levels of production refinement on this product.

Originally Posted by padre2992 (Post 1160200)

I think RA said in an LCA meeting that the American pilots would have been further ahead if they had taken 3%/year for the last five years. Instead they thought asking for 52% up front would net them something acceptable. Bankruptcy came before acceptable.

Our situation is different than the APA had, but don't forget that there is a time value to our money, and a value to whatever the "opportunity" is that is driving the company to negotiate. The possible returns of a contract in 5 years have to be weighed against whatever certain gains are presented today, and the contract 5 years from now will not have the value of today's "opportunity". The knock on that door will have gone unanswered, and the value lost. Essentially it is the old adages of "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.", and "opportunity only knocks once."

If the negotiators reach an agreement, consider the agreement in the context of your needs, the industry, the economy, the political climate, the professed NMB attitude Linda Puchala outlined regarding obstinate pilot groups, and make a professional choice.

Personally, I think the attitude of a pilot group that leads to waiting 5 years for a contract displays a disconnect with reality. How can a professional group misjudge so gravely the difference between what is possible with what is desired, that it leads to 5 years of stagnation?

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44 (Post 1160259)

I will vote no on a 5, 5, 5, 5 deal. I will vote yes on a 20, 5, 5, 5 deal assuming it improves other things (scope included). To me a 5, 5, 5, 5 deal is not a huge improvement. Gas prices are skyrocketing causing inflation to go up significantly. We'll be lucky to keep the same buying power we have now with a 5, 5, 5, 5 contract. It needs to be higher.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1160268)

Great point. 5, 5, 5 and 5 is not keeping up with cost to live. Basically it's a $4,000 increase income for someone in my category and same longevity. By the time you take out taxes at the effective tax rate, alpa dues and some other stuff it amounts to a whopping $250-$260 increase per month.

Whats our medical plans going to cost as time moves on here? How about $4/gal being sustained and sent higher with hurricane/refinery fire shocks.

By the time it's all done you might not be able to afford a Matchbox Cadillac a month.

Like Hockey says, I'll live with 5% YOY for years 2->, but upfront it cannot be 5% unless we get 100% scope, and then I need to look at it because I still might say no.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1160263)

ACL65,

Expect scope to be a muddy mess with ALPA calling it an "improvement" and thinking pilots calling it a sell out.

Management wants more large narrow body jet outsourcing. Lets see if they get it.

Needs to be 10, then off to infinity at 5% with no scope sale. Management's only motivation is the scope piece. If we hold ALPA's feet to the fire, they will blame us for the lack of movement.

In American's case, I actually think they are better off by not accepting raises combined with a scope sale. I hope they put the issue of labor protective provisions to a Judge and still maintain their pay. Given their industry position and the still quick timeline, I'd say the lack of time is on their side.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1160268)

Great point. 5, 5, 5 and 5 is not keeping up with cost to live. Basically it's a $4,000 increase income for someone in my category and same longevity. By the time you take out taxes at the effective tax rate, alpa dues and some other stuff it amounts to a whopping $250-$260 increase per month.

Whats our medical plans going to cost as time moves on here? How about $4/gal being sustained and sent higher with hurricane/refinery fire shocks.

By the time it's all done you might not be able to afford a Matchbox Cadillac a month.

Like Hockey says, I'll live with 5% YOY for years 2->, but upfront it cannot be 5% unless we get 100% scope, and then I need to look at it because I still might say no.

Originally Posted by Flamer (Post 1160284)

How many pilots would delta have if we had 100% scope?

Originally Posted by Flamer (Post 1160284)

How many pilots would delta have if we had 100% scope?

Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1160274)

-------------------------------------quote above^^^^^^^^^^^^^^----------------
Following 6 years of stagnation?

The real question is not money. The real question IS: Can DALPA recapture scope or is the (perceived) conflict of interest at national REAL.

We've been down this road before...promises, promises...How about we get our jobs back as item #1 and get our pay back as item #2.

Originally Posted by Delta1067 (Post 1160279)

Raw bucket group 3 now starts at 129 for narrow body. Me like