Originally Posted by nwaf16dude

I was on a hotel bus today and overheard a conversation between a regional guy and a fairly senior looking wide body FO. This FO did not know if we were hiring or furloughing, and also didn't know when our contract was amendable. Pretty sure this guy is either an easy yes vote on anything, or not even going to vote. It's hard for me to imagine how one could be so unaware. I hope there aren't many like that, but I fear otherwise.

Originally Posted by gloopy

Not to mention giving up staffing relief, especially in the summer, as well as contemplating any more DC-9 replacement jets at DCI.

Thinking we're going to get offsets to all the negatives in the NNP is Nevil Chamberlain-esque in its optimism. I see nothing to indicate that trajectory and lots to the contrary. Yet what we get, as bad as it may be, will be agressively sold as an all around win or at the very least "the best we could get". Every CBA in history always is. But I think what's coming our way real soon is going to suck for the sake of expediency and be spun as a good deal.

Significant staffing relief? More DC-9 replacement jets at DCI? Hopefully the reps will nip that in the bud but I suspect they will be strongly pressured to send it to us. Either way, if its the POS many deduct that its going to be,

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

You're right man. I've given this another look and my previous thought that maybe this could be accepted by getting SWAPA's scope - still wouldn't be enough. I originally saw this ALV stuff as an example of neutral bargaining where you give away something to get something. But this is a straight-up concession. This would be neutral bargaining if the increases in ALV were offset by a 6.5 to 7 hour per day minimum daily credit...but that's NOT the case. Thus the folks here calling this a flat out concession are right.

Absolute NO vote from me and yet another urging of my reps to vote this down. I cannot imagine how our MEC bureaucrats could be this out of touch with us.

Carl

Originally Posted by Jack Bauer

Well said! I am surprised there isn't a bigger uproar over potentially flying pilots more hours. I know there are some that like flying more than being at home. I am not one of those people. Being away from home, family, events and sleeping in hotels for even 10 days a month (the more the worse) really jacks with trying to live a normal life.

Adding more potential forced flying is a no vote for me. The flip side of that, if there is language guaranteeing that I can bid for example a 50 hour schedule or take more days off on reserve when I need to then I might be ok with language allowing those who love to fly a million hours a year do their thing as well.

Money is important but what I want to see is more money while still living a half way normal life with my family and maintaining some semblance of health, circadian rhythm, family life etc.

The negotiating committee is headed the wrong way in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Timbo

I'm still not too clear on why the company came to us, to open early, and get this thing done quickly. All I've heard from my Rep. when I called him to ask is,

"Richard wants to pursue Other Opportunities..."

Ummm...Ok, but what's in it, for US?

Are we going to get MORE MONEY/Benefits/Retirement/Work rules, etc. (another 'bite of the apple') if/when this Other Opportunity comes about? What if we are still in contract negotiations a year from now, and Delta has just posted a $2Billion proffit?

What if Richard's "Other Opportunity" is...Getting the Pilots to rush into being locked into a substandard contract for several more years, with minimum pay/benefit restoration now, before Delta starts making $2Billion/yr. with his new cheap fuel farm?? Or before O'Bama gets re-elected, or before he buys...? someone else, shrinks the mainline (again) and gives our DC9 flying to yet another RJ operator? Or all of the above?

Unless we get a huge pay restoration, with huge retirement paybacks, with upside profit sharing protections for if/when his fuel farm (the one our pay cuts paid for) purchase starts 'paying off', and better scope/job protections, I'm in no hurry to commit to yet another long term bankruptcy pay rate/benefit contract (adjusted for inflation, we are still there today!).

I see no reason to rush into this, just because he -said- he's got "Other Opportunities".

As I tell my wife when ever she wants me to do housework;

"Don't Rush ME! If I rush, I'll make mistakes, and we don't want that now do we?"

Originally Posted by Check Essential

Hopefully they are in the process of stopping this train wreck right now.
These negotiations have clearly gone terribly wrong.
Whatever "opportunity" has caused us to expedite the talks is not worth it.

The O'Malley administration and the negotiators have got to explain what has happened.
After all we've given through bankruptcy and everything, how in hell can we be negotiating more concessions?

The reps need to shut this thing down while there is still time.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44

I can. We keep trying to give ALPA one more chance. They keep failing. They always get one more chance. This negotiating appears to be no different. We will give them another chance. We always do.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Maybe not. A lot of guys trying to give ALPA the benefit of the doubt with what we've seen so far (Neg. Notepad). But when the actual TA comes out, it will be vetted here and on the DALPA Forum like never before. If the pay and scope sections are stinkers (i.e. don't make significant progress toward restoration of pay and reversal of outsourcing), that, along with what we've seen so far is going to raise a lot of eyebrows and may open enough eyes to see a different outcome from years past. Sure, there will always be the committed ALPA loyalist lemming types... but I think there are many of us (hopefully the majority) that look at it from a practical business standpoint. We know what we've put into this career... the sacrifices we and our families have made along the way. We know the very significant responsibility we have on a daily basis and we are painfully aware of the career risks (medical, etc.) to which we are always exposed. A 42% lower standard of living than what we had 10 years ago and a huge percentage of Delta passengers being flown by non-Delta pilots... well, I don't think that is something that many of us will accept anymore. (Some of us never accepted it.) It's time to put our collective feet down and make a stand.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Maybe not. A lot of guys trying to give ALPA the benefit of the doubt with what we've seen so far (Neg. Notepad). But when the actual TA comes out, it will be vetted here and on the DALPA Forum like never before. If the pay and scope sections are stinkers (i.e. don't make significant progress toward restoration of pay and reversal of outsourcing), that, along with what we've seen so far is going to raise a lot of eyebrows and may open enough eyes to see a different outcome from years past. Sure, there will always be the committed ALPA loyalist lemming types... but I think there are many of us (hopefully the majority) that look at it from a practical business standpoint. We know what we've put into this career... the sacrifices we and our families have made along the way. We know the very significant responsibility we have on a daily basis and we are painfully aware of the career risks (medical, etc.) to which we are always exposed. A 42% lower standard of living than what we had 10 years ago and a huge percentage of Delta passengers being flown by non-Delta pilots... well, I don't think that is something that many of us will accept anymore. (Some of us never accepted it.) It's time to put our collective feet down and make a stand.

Originally Posted by Columbia

Yep-that seems to be the type the mec is hoping for.