Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-13-2012, 08:34 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by dragon
Alfa,
Your post is interesting, and frankly I had to read it a couple of times to get past the snarky, condescending tone to get to the meat. Yes I'm junior, yes I've been on reserve, but don't sit there and tell me I'm too stupid to read.
You represent DALPA and frankly, the worst parts of it. You want us to sit back and color while the "adults" make the decisions with the information that is too "privileged" for the masses to see. You ask us to trust you when there is no trust left in the bank.
For the most part, I've been staying off the forums to wait for the contract. I'm cautiously excited, but the NNP put a lot of angst back in my world.
You have had some great posts in the past, but drop the whole trust me thing and stop talking down to us. What I saw in the NNP is concessionary in nature so far, but I'm sure it's because I'm "too stupid" to see the awesomeness it contains.
I'm hoping/praying that there is more to see. They (the NC) have done some good work outside section 6, so I am hoping for a linear result.
Your post is interesting, and frankly I had to read it a couple of times to get past the snarky, condescending tone to get to the meat. Yes I'm junior, yes I've been on reserve, but don't sit there and tell me I'm too stupid to read.
You represent DALPA and frankly, the worst parts of it. You want us to sit back and color while the "adults" make the decisions with the information that is too "privileged" for the masses to see. You ask us to trust you when there is no trust left in the bank.
For the most part, I've been staying off the forums to wait for the contract. I'm cautiously excited, but the NNP put a lot of angst back in my world.
You have had some great posts in the past, but drop the whole trust me thing and stop talking down to us. What I saw in the NNP is concessionary in nature so far, but I'm sure it's because I'm "too stupid" to see the awesomeness it contains.
I'm hoping/praying that there is more to see. They (the NC) have done some good work outside section 6, so I am hoping for a linear result.
If this was a defense of ALV+15, I'm very concerned we are okay with continued stagnation even as retirements kick in. What's the point of an increased guarantee if pilots get MD'd off to lower paying equipment?
I like you hope for something more from the NC.
05-13-2012, 08:37 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by dragon
Alfa,
Your post is interesting, and frankly I had to read it a couple of times to get past the snarky, condescending tone to get to the meat. Yes I'm junior, yes I've been on reserve, but don't sit there and tell me I'm too stupid to read.
You represent DALPA and frankly, the worst parts of it. You want us to sit back and color while the "adults" make the decisions with the information that is too "privileged" for the masses to see. You ask us to trust you when there is no trust left in the bank.
For the most part, I've been staying off the forums to wait for the contract. I'm cautiously excited, but the NNP put a lot of angst back in my world.
You have had some great posts in the past, but drop the whole trust me thing and stop talking down to us. What I saw in the NNP is concessionary in nature so far, but I'm sure it's because I'm "too stupid" to see the awesomeness it contains.
I'm hoping/praying that there is more to see. They (the NC) have done some good work outside section 6, so I am hoping for a linear result.
Your post is interesting, and frankly I had to read it a couple of times to get past the snarky, condescending tone to get to the meat. Yes I'm junior, yes I've been on reserve, but don't sit there and tell me I'm too stupid to read.
You represent DALPA and frankly, the worst parts of it. You want us to sit back and color while the "adults" make the decisions with the information that is too "privileged" for the masses to see. You ask us to trust you when there is no trust left in the bank.
For the most part, I've been staying off the forums to wait for the contract. I'm cautiously excited, but the NNP put a lot of angst back in my world.
You have had some great posts in the past, but drop the whole trust me thing and stop talking down to us. What I saw in the NNP is concessionary in nature so far, but I'm sure it's because I'm "too stupid" to see the awesomeness it contains.
I'm hoping/praying that there is more to see. They (the NC) have done some good work outside section 6, so I am hoping for a linear result.
I understand your angst, I really do. These boards aren't helping, because of the large number of guys that have already launched into DefCon 4. We know very little yet, and to base much on this NNP is really silly, and to try and project things not talked about is just plain stupid. We have NO idea about pay.. NO idea about scopo, yet there are those that are in high warble over that speculation. DO not fall into that trap.
05-13-2012, 08:40 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by tsquare
Is that staffing formula based on system wide reserve utilization, or is it base specific. If it is base specific, then I would venture that 7ERA in NY is in violation, and has been for months. But.. I'll bet a cold one that it is system wide, and THIS NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. PERIOD.
05-13-2012, 08:45 AM
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,870
[QUOTE=alfaromeo;1187216]
Lots of junior guys here understandably don't have enough knowledge of the contract to understand the issues on reserve. There are three issues that all interact to determine reserve staffing, they are:
1. When a reserve is full
2. Max reserve
3. Staffing formula
Alpha,
You bring up some very good points here is what I posted last week:
I have flown reserve on and off for the last 12 years and never even got close to 70 hours in any category I flew in the following bases DFW, LAX, SLC, MCO, unpaid vacation
, ATL ,SLC, LAX, but mostly LAX. The ATL narrow-body guys probably have a different experience.
This is why we need to see some solid analysis and get the NC's take on things.
I do however take exception with your comment about "...junior guys..."
above. Do you actually think most senior guys know these reserve rules any better?
How about ".... besides the contractual experts, most Delta Pilots....."
Scoop
Lots of junior guys here understandably don't have enough knowledge of the contract to understand the issues on reserve. There are three issues that all interact to determine reserve staffing, they are:
1. When a reserve is full
2. Max reserve
3. Staffing formula
Alpha,
You bring up some very good points here is what I posted last week:
I have flown reserve on and off for the last 12 years and never even got close to 70 hours in any category I flew in the following bases DFW, LAX, SLC, MCO, unpaid vacation
, ATL ,SLC, LAX, but mostly LAX. The ATL narrow-body guys probably have a different experience.This is why we need to see some solid analysis and get the NC's take on things.
I do however take exception with your comment about "...junior guys..."
above. Do you actually think most senior guys know these reserve rules any better?
How about ".... besides the contractual experts, most Delta Pilots....."
Scoop
05-13-2012, 08:48 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
You are supposed to be praising the sick leave policy, quit complaining about the reserve system, it's "about to be" damn near perfect.
05-13-2012, 08:48 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by Wasatch Phantom
Question for Sailingfun:
Sailing you and were both at Delta pre-bankruptcy and during the days of the defined benefit retirement plan....
When you were a First Officer and flew a trip with a senior Captain and the subject of "what you made last year" came up, did you or he add in Delta's contribution to your DB retirement plan, or even Delta's match to the Family Care Savings Plan?
No one I flew with did (nor did I).
In that same vein, suppose a Delta pilot has a newborn that has massive health care needs to the tune of $250K. Do you add the 250K to his W-2 and subtract his health care premiums?
Last year I was surprisingly healthy and my health care premiums were a heck of a lot more than what was paid out. Do I get to deduct that "loss" from my Delta income?
I'm curious as to how your accounting methodology handles these situations?
Sailing you and were both at Delta pre-bankruptcy and during the days of the defined benefit retirement plan....
When you were a First Officer and flew a trip with a senior Captain and the subject of "what you made last year" came up, did you or he add in Delta's contribution to your DB retirement plan, or even Delta's match to the Family Care Savings Plan?
No one I flew with did (nor did I).
In that same vein, suppose a Delta pilot has a newborn that has massive health care needs to the tune of $250K. Do you add the 250K to his W-2 and subtract his health care premiums?
Last year I was surprisingly healthy and my health care premiums were a heck of a lot more than what was paid out. Do I get to deduct that "loss" from my Delta income?
I'm curious as to how your accounting methodology handles these situations?
I wonder if the SWAPA booklet used pre-tax W-2 or "after-tax and deductions" W-2? I would assume they had to use pre-tax to get an accurate average across the whole country because of city, county, state and federal tax rates? Plus each pilot chooses the amounts of deductions and withholding, so you'd really have to ignore that. That could really make a big difference in W-2 "earnings" and probably explains those high averages we hear from management when they cry foul during negotiations.
05-13-2012, 09:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,923
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Lots of junior guys here understandably don't have enough knowledge of the contract to understand the issues on reserve. There are three issues that all interact to determine reserve staffing, they are:
1. When a reserve is full
2. Max reserve
3. Staffing formula
Look at the last issue first. The staffing formula is based on reserves flying an average of 60 hours per month. It is a self correcting formula. If you have 1000 reserves and somehow they average 90 hours a month (90,000 hours) then you will soon have 1500 reserves (90,000/60). There is no way to have reserves consistently fly above a 60 hour average, without having the staffing formula rise to correct for it. It is not optional. The formula is a rolling 12 month average so there can be variations in special situations, but the staffing formula will always drive the average back down to 60.
Now look at when a reserve is full. Currently a reserve is full at the reserve guarantee. That means that once a pilot flies 70.01, he can't be given another trip. Under the current contract, if a pilot takes military leave (or some other absence like vacation) for half the month HIS guarantee is 35 hours. However, he still isn't full until he hits 70 hours. Under the agreement reached, that pilot will now be full at HIS guarantee or 35 hours. That will REDUCE the availability of that reserve pilot, that is a gain.
Max reserve. If a reserve isn't full, then how much can a reserve be flown. Currently the max is ALV. The proposed change is ALV + 15. If a reserve should average 60 hours a month, then how does this have any effect? It has an effect when a guy is about half full and is one of the only guys available when a longer trip comes up. This change will nominally reduce green slips, but will only effect staffing to the extent that the 60 hour average is easier to reach. The idea that reserves will consistently be flying 85 hours a month is impossible, the staffing formula will never allow that to occur. Because reserve guarantee is going up by 8%, this change reduces some of the additional cost of the extra guarantee.
It is not anyone's fault that they may not fully understand the interaction of these three items. The notepad was an attempt to give an update on the items discussed so far, but there was no time to do a complete analysis to discuss these issues. The misconceptions on this issue are large and will be addressed if there is a tentative agreement.
Now could someone at least talk about sick leave which is the best program I have ever had in my close to 25 years at Delta. If you come off disability, you can borrow sick time from next year so if you have a cold you are not left without pay. If you are sick on the first day or two of a long rotation, you can WITHOUT RISK, try to pick up time to avoid having your sick bank debited. There is not another sick program in the industry that is even close to this. This program recognizes the real world problems pilots face all the time with sick leave and it addresses them all.
1. When a reserve is full
2. Max reserve
3. Staffing formula
Look at the last issue first. The staffing formula is based on reserves flying an average of 60 hours per month. It is a self correcting formula. If you have 1000 reserves and somehow they average 90 hours a month (90,000 hours) then you will soon have 1500 reserves (90,000/60). There is no way to have reserves consistently fly above a 60 hour average, without having the staffing formula rise to correct for it. It is not optional. The formula is a rolling 12 month average so there can be variations in special situations, but the staffing formula will always drive the average back down to 60.
Now look at when a reserve is full. Currently a reserve is full at the reserve guarantee. That means that once a pilot flies 70.01, he can't be given another trip. Under the current contract, if a pilot takes military leave (or some other absence like vacation) for half the month HIS guarantee is 35 hours. However, he still isn't full until he hits 70 hours. Under the agreement reached, that pilot will now be full at HIS guarantee or 35 hours. That will REDUCE the availability of that reserve pilot, that is a gain.
Max reserve. If a reserve isn't full, then how much can a reserve be flown. Currently the max is ALV. The proposed change is ALV + 15. If a reserve should average 60 hours a month, then how does this have any effect? It has an effect when a guy is about half full and is one of the only guys available when a longer trip comes up. This change will nominally reduce green slips, but will only effect staffing to the extent that the 60 hour average is easier to reach. The idea that reserves will consistently be flying 85 hours a month is impossible, the staffing formula will never allow that to occur. Because reserve guarantee is going up by 8%, this change reduces some of the additional cost of the extra guarantee.
It is not anyone's fault that they may not fully understand the interaction of these three items. The notepad was an attempt to give an update on the items discussed so far, but there was no time to do a complete analysis to discuss these issues. The misconceptions on this issue are large and will be addressed if there is a tentative agreement.
Now could someone at least talk about sick leave which is the best program I have ever had in my close to 25 years at Delta. If you come off disability, you can borrow sick time from next year so if you have a cold you are not left without pay. If you are sick on the first day or two of a long rotation, you can WITHOUT RISK, try to pick up time to avoid having your sick bank debited. There is not another sick program in the industry that is even close to this. This program recognizes the real world problems pilots face all the time with sick leave and it addresses them all.
05-13-2012, 09:15 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by dragon
Alfa,
Your post is interesting, and frankly I had to read it a couple of times to get past the snarky, condescending tone to get to the meat. Yes I'm junior, yes I've been on reserve, but don't sit there and tell me I'm too stupid to read.
You represent DALPA and frankly, the worst parts of it. You want us to sit back and color while the "adults" make the decisions with the information that is too "privileged" for the masses to see. You ask us to trust you when there is no trust left in the bank.
For the most part, I've been staying off the forums to wait for the contract. I'm cautiously excited, but the NNP put a lot of angst back in my world.
You have had some great posts in the past, but drop the whole trust me thing and stop talking down to us. What I saw in the NNP is concessionary in nature so far, but I'm sure it's because I'm "too stupid" to see the awesomeness it contains.
I'm hoping/praying that there is more to see. They (the NC) have done some good work outside section 6, so I am hoping for a linear result.
Your post is interesting, and frankly I had to read it a couple of times to get past the snarky, condescending tone to get to the meat. Yes I'm junior, yes I've been on reserve, but don't sit there and tell me I'm too stupid to read.
You represent DALPA and frankly, the worst parts of it. You want us to sit back and color while the "adults" make the decisions with the information that is too "privileged" for the masses to see. You ask us to trust you when there is no trust left in the bank.
For the most part, I've been staying off the forums to wait for the contract. I'm cautiously excited, but the NNP put a lot of angst back in my world.
You have had some great posts in the past, but drop the whole trust me thing and stop talking down to us. What I saw in the NNP is concessionary in nature so far, but I'm sure it's because I'm "too stupid" to see the awesomeness it contains.
I'm hoping/praying that there is more to see. They (the NC) have done some good work outside section 6, so I am hoping for a linear result.
If Alfa has a rationale for the ALV+15 bit, let him explain it. He didn't take any liberties in the process. If you still have problems with, argue your point.
I'm not sure I buy into the concept, but I've long advocated for Reserve "pay equality" (so to speak), so I want to see the whole package, to judge how a Reserve would be affected. Combined with a shorter SC, this might work.
George made some good points in an early post, and my takeway from it is that, on average, Reserves can't fly that much more, but for some individuals, in the middle of the summer, the leash is going to bite, and they'll have to fly 99 hours. If the days off are right, and the Reserve credit is right, this might cut both ways. Once I hit ALV - a couple when I was on Reserve, I was in for a penny, in for a pound... and I would put in a high yellow. The only thing that absolutely sucks on Reserve is to fly within a couple of minutes of guarantee, over and over. That was what the RAW score guaranteed, especially pre-bucket.
Honestly, I don't think the contract will hinge on Reserve, and I do see some concessionary aspects, but I think overall, what's in the NNP is about neutral, and I hope that what's not in the NNP will make it good.
Last edited by Sink r8; 05-13-2012 at 09:36 AM.
05-13-2012, 09:23 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by tsquare
Well, at the risk of falling into the trap that I just warned dragon about, I am not very happy with what I have read in the NP. I do NOT like the added SC day, nor do I like the ALV+15 idea. Once again, it appears that reserves are gonna take it in the shorts.. but I am not worried, because I will be senior someday. /sarcasm IMHO, they are BOTH extremely concessionary. I think the sick leave thing is a much needed improvement, but still has a long way to go.. next contract.. in 5 years..
You can give me gains in a lot of places, a lot. But if there are no jobs then the gains are never realized.
Patiently waiting. If the ALV+15 is a trail balloon I hope it was the plan of the NC to send it out to show management it'd be as unpopular as 80's wet fart in church this morning. In the youth section no less.
05-13-2012, 09:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
In the youth section no less.
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