Ten,

Your version of history is not quite right.

Back in the day, we had airline jobs, period. Some airlines like Pan Am were big and international, some airlines like Delta, Northeast, Ransome and Southern were small and regional.

By the time the RJ's came along in 1996, there were already DC9's, BAE146's, 737's, F27's and Dash 7's. Some regional airlines, like ASA, flew their own code and also code-shared with Delta t increase Delta's feed, just as Alaska does today. Comair was a bit of a new model, since it was developed by Delta and operated under Delta's direction.

In the day these carriers would have been treated like Ramsome, Southern, Northeast, etc... In those days the capacity of the DC-3, Convairs and the like were not that distant a memory. The memories of men like EL Cord who used alter ego to bust pilot labor unions was familiar too. Our union understood whipsaw and the risks of letting the Company have a choice of pilot labor.

You do place the blame in the right general direction. It was ALPA, specifically our mainline MEC's who brought forward the changes needed to facilitate and transfer the wealth to us, a preferred class of pilots who would enjoy the fruits of superior representation.

Morally, I believe it is wrong that we, as a union, provide a different outcome to pilots based on the number of seats on their airplanes. If Pinnacle had one more seat on one airplane, they'd be afforded the benefits of ALPA's merger policy. But since they have only 76 seats, they are suckered into concessionary contracts for survival.

Your conclusions are probably right. It seemed some here might benefit from the history lesson. DCI in it's current form remains inefficient, a lousy place to work and far from our best efforts to serve our customers. We should continue our efforts to see that only Delta pilots perform Delta flying.

And on the flip side, it was ALSO the mainline MECs that facilitated the transfer of outsourcing flying once the RJ's came on line.

And down line, that proved to transfer that wealth away from the pilots and back to management through substandard representation.

That isn't just a DAL/DCI problem. It's an industry wide problem of the mainline/regional feed business model.

One that came into fruition during the BK era and lasts till today.

And the way that management excised those tactics on PCL is having ripple effects that will reach XJT, AE, an any other carrier trying to negotiate a CBA.

We're beating a dead horse here. That's just management's job, get costs down. And it is truly amazing how far down they can drag the product. Or in Gordon Bethune's words, amazing how crappy the pizza can get before people will stop eating it.

John,

While the situation got worse during bankruptcy, this outsourcing model existed in the 1990's. Changes to ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy were made during some of our industry's most profitable years leading up to 2000.

YEAH, I KNOW. That's what I was referencing when I mentioned the RJ's coming online, and mainline MEC's not retaining that flying and passing them down to the "commuters". Gotta give the courtesy of reading all that was written.

I'm talking exclusive of the AWAC/WestAir/BIZEX/ASA/Mesaba, etc BAC-146/AVRO jets that came and went.

Great reply! I think we or at least I can say I agree with you almost 100% I started flying back in 75 and had a late start in this career due to military or flying in the Guard. Had the privilege to fly with most of the pilots from all the airlines so I did learn some history of the various carriers. If I had my way there wouldn't be any regionals and I would already be flying at a major or as some or many here would think, on the street in another career. When I was working on my ratings I don't think there were regionals just 135 commuters and a BIG difference from a commuter to the major. The majors first stopped scope at less then 40, then 50, now 76. Had the feeling you're not good enough to fly anything bigger then 10 or 20 seats unless you're at a major. But then it was ok you can go to 33, 44, 50, opps lets make it 76 now. There also used to be great differences between commuters and the majors but I don't see so much difference anymore.

As in the previous post most major pilots did earn their positions and I turned down job offers at Eastern for the obvious reason. However, you need only look at CAL to know that not every major pilot earned his position. So after seeing the buyouts and mergers I find it hard to see what's so wrong with having a flow to the bottom of the seniority list when a major buys regionals. Maybe it would help stop some of the whipsawing among the regionals. I also don't understand the reasoning if I am not allowed to operate an airlines aircraft at the major level why be allowed to operate the same airlines owned aircraft at the regional? I know, its the test and interview. Makes since to me now.

I have an idea too. How about we only take pilots from the highest paying regional. We could set up a flow from that highest paying regional and it is only valid until the next regional out paces them.

Why should we automatically take someone just because they voted for a lower payscale at their own job. Seems to me we have enough of that in house already.

That's fine with me too! I'm sure it's better then what we have now. Cheers...

You wrote
Mr. Carr,

No need for you to be rude.

The distinction is important. This model did not come into fruition during bankruptcy. Many would lead you to believe that somehow this level of outsourcing was forced during bankruptcy, but it wasn't:

• Contract 2000 scope was signed during good times. However, it appears to have been written with knowledge that it would be violated quickly. In simplified terms it required a 3 to 1 ratio of mainline to express flying. Delta had committed to 500 RJ's. Did anyone expect 1,500 growth mainline jets to arrive? Did anyone expect a mainline fleet of 2,100 aircraft?
• Contract 2000 scope failed within 6 months and was renegotiated approximately 4 years prior to bankruptcy
• Prior to bankruptcy two agreements were reached allowing increased outsourcing
• At both NWA and Delta, the respective negotiators applied "credits" for increased outsourcing
• Those agreements were negotiated and ratified

This is not to say ALPA and the negotiating teams were not under enormous pressure. ALPA's attorneys were correct when they stated judges very well could invalidate labor protective provisions during bankruptcy. We saw in American's bankruptcy the Judge did invalidate their scope. American's end state was very close to what the NWA and Delta MECs negotiated, but NWA and DAL pilot reps were more effective, sooner, for their constituents.

The reason this distinction remains important is that those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it. Today we are in "good times" and we are again reliant on ratios and seat numbers. In the past this strategy failed when tested by economic duress. The current numbers are more sound, but the strategy itself remains less than optimal.

The only structurally sound answer is to separate unity from economics. Economic solutions change constantly. Unity, as a moral imperative, is absolute.

Hey, the great news? Delta Air Lines is going to hire off the street.

enjoy and good luck!

I ALREADY made that distinction, I'm NOT being rude. So yeah, when I wrote;

It was in SPECIFIC reference to the pre 9-11/pre-BK era. IE, DAL letting COMAIR having the 50 seaters, and later UAL allowing jets on property after the mid-term ESOP vote. That was the first "crack in the armor" so to speak.

When I wrote this;

It was in SPECIFIC reference to scope giveaway in what you reference below, as well as the BK era. Remember, DAL wasn't the ONLY airline that did it. UAL gave up the jets on the mid-term ESOP vote. They FURTHER gave up more jets on contract 2000. The BK era was like Michael Wittmans's 88MM on his Tiger blowing the crap out every allied vehicle he could. Only unlike Michael Whittman, it didn't really come to an end.

Yeah dude, I KNOW. I'm one of the LAST people that you need to tell that to.

50 seaters are going away, and that's a good thing. They are a terrible experience for the passenger, as well as expensive to operate at higher oil prices. But while everybody is jumping for joy over it, the amount of larger capacity airframes at the regionals is still there. So what's a bigger threat to the to the mainline pilot NB job? The 50 or the 70? It's rhetorical, don't bother answering.

But yeah, I agree. It's amazing what pilots will agree to during the good (better) economic times. NOT realizing how these decisions can bite them in the a$$ later on. Only to then blame everybody but themselves. Which AGAIN, brings up back full circle to a point we made pages and pages ago in this thread.