Details on Delta TA
08-06-2014 | 09:35 PM
#431
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 38
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From: Capt
To me, that looks like a nice chunk of leverage when we threaten to take the labor peace off the table...
Don't want to burn that leverage too early or it becomes an empty threat that won't have an effect on the enterprise/stock price (I.e. APA's last 12 years), before C2012 almost all our peers were well behind us (roughly 14.5% average below) the company was still pretty deep in debt, and we were still only marginally profitable. Going to torches and pitchforks then would not have yielded a result. By gaining an additional 12.84% it broke the mold considerably.
Playing "nice" and jumping to a 25-30% lead was smart, IMO. That helped UAL make 25-40% gains and AMR to have to pull and renegotiate a better Ch11 contract. Now that we have UAL edging ahead us in 2016, AMR set to average off of us and UAL in 2016(the rest of their contract is in bad shape though), LCC gone, a company with a much lower debt structure and massively more profitable we stand to get the level of compensation you and I both think we deserve (I want the QOL too!)
Playing nice last time gave mgt a talking point, and them saying that to the investment community just gave us a bigger hammer. I don't think Donatelli and Morgado are afraid to use it.
Will the pilot group rally behind them and give them the big nail of pilot unity as the other necessary leverage point? I'm going to do my part, I hope you will too.
Don't want to burn that leverage too early or it becomes an empty threat that won't have an effect on the enterprise/stock price (I.e. APA's last 12 years), before C2012 almost all our peers were well behind us (roughly 14.5% average below) the company was still pretty deep in debt, and we were still only marginally profitable. Going to torches and pitchforks then would not have yielded a result. By gaining an additional 12.84% it broke the mold considerably.
Playing "nice" and jumping to a 25-30% lead was smart, IMO. That helped UAL make 25-40% gains and AMR to have to pull and renegotiate a better Ch11 contract. Now that we have UAL edging ahead us in 2016, AMR set to average off of us and UAL in 2016(the rest of their contract is in bad shape though), LCC gone, a company with a much lower debt structure and massively more profitable we stand to get the level of compensation you and I both think we deserve (I want the QOL too!)
Playing nice last time gave mgt a talking point, and them saying that to the investment community just gave us a bigger hammer. I don't think Donatelli and Morgado are afraid to use it.
Will the pilot group rally behind them and give them the big nail of pilot unity as the other necessary leverage point? I'm going to do my part, I hope you will too.
I would just love to see the Donatelli/Morgado hammer used...(if there is even a perception of one), never happen!
LP
08-07-2014 | 04:05 AM
#432
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
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From: 767er Captain
What about with a just a little more green, not much.... I still think we will do better if we are unified, but this is academic anyway...
sorry for the blue box... it doesn't highlight anything
I don't know about y'all, but I'm crediting a lot more than 1000 hours per year, and I am not working more. Add in some contract items where it adds hours like training/vaca/CBT and 5:15 ADG hasn't kicked in yet, and now the number gets bigger outside of the rate.
sorry for the blue box... it doesn't highlight anything
I don't know about y'all, but I'm crediting a lot more than 1000 hours per year, and I am not working more. Add in some contract items where it adds hours like training/vaca/CBT and 5:15 ADG hasn't kicked in yet, and now the number gets bigger outside of the rate.
08-07-2014 | 04:09 AM
#433
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
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From: 767er Captain
Look. You either subscribe to the idea of "pattern bargaining" or you don't. I don't... at least not to the degree you and guys like Alfa do. I think it's but one of many factors that affect us and not by any means the sole determinant of what we're able to get.
But let's go with your beloved pattern bargaining theory. Primarily because of the success of our company, our pilot group has been in a better position than anyone else in the industry to achieve gains. Like it or not, we've been in a leadership position. If we had come out of bankruptcy and immediately made it clear to all concerned that restoration was our goal, I think we'd be further along than we are now. That's just my opinion (because there's no way to know since we didn't try it), but it's an opinion based on the knowledge that it's almost impossible to achieve something difficult and substantial without first defining it as the objective, formulating a plan to achieve it, and then executing the plan with resolve. That's Success 101. We have not done that. In fact, just the opposite, our leadership in DALPA have poo-poo'd the idea every chance they get. I don't think it's a stretch at all that we've set a low bar (relative to the objective of restoration), set the tone for our industry, and as a result, made it more difficult for other pilot groups to "pattern up" to anything like restoration. We have been in the leadership position in our industry. And we've set the tone and pretty well established that restoration is not the goal.
But let's go with your beloved pattern bargaining theory. Primarily because of the success of our company, our pilot group has been in a better position than anyone else in the industry to achieve gains. Like it or not, we've been in a leadership position. If we had come out of bankruptcy and immediately made it clear to all concerned that restoration was our goal, I think we'd be further along than we are now. That's just my opinion (because there's no way to know since we didn't try it), but it's an opinion based on the knowledge that it's almost impossible to achieve something difficult and substantial without first defining it as the objective, formulating a plan to achieve it, and then executing the plan with resolve. That's Success 101. We have not done that. In fact, just the opposite, our leadership in DALPA have poo-poo'd the idea every chance they get. I don't think it's a stretch at all that we've set a low bar (relative to the objective of restoration), set the tone for our industry, and as a result, made it more difficult for other pilot groups to "pattern up" to anything like restoration. We have been in the leadership position in our industry. And we've set the tone and pretty well established that restoration is not the goal.
08-07-2014 | 05:22 AM
#434
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,642
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From: right for a long, long time
Ask an older Fedex pilot or read up on their history on how 40% of pilots having signed an FPA card affected their negotiating leverage and the effectiveness of their strike vote authorization.
08-07-2014 | 05:52 AM
#435
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
08-07-2014 | 06:21 AM
#436
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Do you want to restore unlimited rj's? Restore immovable vacation? Restore lower vacation and training? Restore no PWA protections for joint ventures? Do you want to restore reserve pilot pay to 70 hours and 2 short call windows every day on call? Do you want to restore no devation from DH with PS on either end of a trip? Do you want to restore a retirement system that relies solely on the Company's promise to pay a check, and costs you a hefty percentage if you want to make sure your spouse/heirs get paid when you die? Are you just cherry picking what you want to "restore"?
Ok, I'm done with that. Let's find common ground going forward and work from there. I want a lot more improvements, and my checking account bears out that I am much better off than I was 7 years ago (I just tossed out the 7 year old tax docs, it was so ugly then).
I don't believe that increasing pay rates nearly 50% in 8 years is a "precedent that works against us". I'd love to keep up that trajectory as long as we can!
I don't believe that increasing pay rates nearly 50% in 8 years is a "precedent that works against us". I'd love to keep up that trajectory as long as we can!
2004 767 Captain rate: $267.52
Adjusted for inflation to 2015: $342.98
Current contract rate in 2015: $226.21
That 2015 rate is a $117 per hour PAY CUT from the buying power of the 2004 rate!
Those are the raw numbers. You can talk about "50% over 8 years" all you want. But at the end of the day, the numbers don't lie.
And I didn't even get into how much each of us has already contributed to date to our company's recovery over the past 10 years. I'm only suggesting we fix our compensation going forward. They can have my "contribution" of probably around $1 million as my gift to help my company get through a crisis!
I know there are many things in the PWA that are still behind where they need to be, many that have been "restored", and many things that are way better than the "restoration" line you've drawn for 2004. Donatelli and Morgado in this area are tasked with maximizing the PWA and follwing the direction of the MEC reps. It's not their place to decide what the goals are, it's their place to try and achieve the goals as given by their elected representatives.
I actually appreciate most of our back and forth, I'm ok "agreeing to disagree", because I think you stay fairly consistent and only 'go personal' once in a while. I would appreciate you refraining from the "Lee Moak disciple", "ALPA insider", and "you guys"-ing me however. If I have made personal remarks about you please let me know, it is not my intent. WE are in this together. I'm like any other pilot who wants to improve this profession as much as possible, I just happen to step forward and do some union work when asked. Not everyone does, I'm okay with that. I don't, however take "marching orders" from Lee Moak, he's so beyond my level of participation. I wasn't really much of a volunteer when he was the MEC Chairman, and National does much bigger issues.
I am willing to promote the ALPA goals with regards to the Legislative and Safety agenda, and I have stepped forward when Tim, King and Donatelli asked for more volunteerism. They are three VERY different people with VERY different styles, but it doesn't really matter, they all wanted to help put the Delta Pilots back on top of the profession(and when we have multiple pilots bailing from AA, SW, and US to be new hires at DL, I think that says something is being done right over here, but I digress). I have NOT agreed with things each one of them has done, but I'm not going to quit helping or disparage them in public over it. It's okay to not agree 100%, no matter if it's you, Timmy C, King, Donatelli, PD, T, whoever... We are on the same team, and our duly elected reps have decided to chose a Chairman that works for them, and I respect that process. I will keep helping because I find satisfaction in promoting and defending the profession and our careers as Delta Pilots.
I am willing to promote the ALPA goals with regards to the Legislative and Safety agenda, and I have stepped forward when Tim, King and Donatelli asked for more volunteerism. They are three VERY different people with VERY different styles, but it doesn't really matter, they all wanted to help put the Delta Pilots back on top of the profession(and when we have multiple pilots bailing from AA, SW, and US to be new hires at DL, I think that says something is being done right over here, but I digress). I have NOT agreed with things each one of them has done, but I'm not going to quit helping or disparage them in public over it. It's okay to not agree 100%, no matter if it's you, Timmy C, King, Donatelli, PD, T, whoever... We are on the same team, and our duly elected reps have decided to chose a Chairman that works for them, and I respect that process. I will keep helping because I find satisfaction in promoting and defending the profession and our careers as Delta Pilots.
Get on board 100% anyway, it's the only way we have a shot at reaching the lofty goals we all have. You won't have a different group negotiating in 2015, this is the team, you can either help push us all forward or you can be an anchor holding us all back. Your choice. We are exactly 8 months from swapping openers, time to start talking up support for the NC and participating when called for Contract preparation with your peers.
P.S. There you went with the "that bunch" thing... Stop with the othering of your fellow Delta Pilots, WE are all in this together.
P.S. There you went with the "that bunch" thing... Stop with the othering of your fellow Delta Pilots, WE are all in this together.
How about this? You guys start showing some real leadership in restoring this profession. Define an objective that clearly states restoration. Start working on a plan to achieve it. Demonstrate that you're serious about that and you'll have more "unity" than you know what to do with!
What you don't seem to understand is that the root of your unity problem is that you keep trying to take us down a road that a large number of us find completely unacceptable. Fix that, and you might just be surprised at how successful we can be together.
08-07-2014 | 06:29 AM
#437
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
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From: 747-400 Captain
I don't think you have met or know either of those gentlemen well enough, else you probably wouldn't have that opinion. It becomes a matter of the pilot group demonstrating that they will back them 100%, and the MEC being confident enough in line pilot support to let them use that hammer.
Carl
08-07-2014 | 06:30 AM
#438
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
From: 757/767
Hard to say. We sure have all the same players like alfaromeo, slowplay, shiznit and the others starting in at the exact same time saying the exact same things. We've also got a survey coming out, the results of which the pilots will NEVER see. We've also got the detailed objective of "a historic contract." And we'll almost certainly never be shown OUR opening position, thus we'll never know what our union even asked for.
Will we see the similarities in time to affect change? Do Delta pilots really prize cooperation with management above all else? I really don't know.
Carl
Will we see the similarities in time to affect change? Do Delta pilots really prize cooperation with management above all else? I really don't know.
Carl
08-07-2014 | 06:36 AM
#439
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
08-07-2014 | 06:41 AM
#440
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Today my time is put to use very productively, but thanks for your concern.
Carl
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