Do you ever tire of looking foolish tsquare?

Carl

Nearly 10,000 posts. Very productive, indeed...

Shack.........

Look at the responses from Carl, LowPhlyer, MD88Driver, etc. All emotional, fact free debates. Find the boogeyman, personal attacks, calls for cojones, foolish conspiracy theories. Seriously, do any of you think you could negotiate with Anderson with those types of tactics? In case you forgot, we all have graduated from grade school a long time ago. I don't really care if you try to use these childish bullying tactics on me.

Is there any chance anyone could address the central questions I asked.

1. Why did all the other airlines fail to improve their contracts before we signed C2012?
2. Why did the world change after we signed C2012?
3. Why hasn't any other pilot group exceeded our rates yet?
4. Are all pilots everywhere and all unions everywhere all failures because they haven't gotten to C2K yet?

My guess is that I will not get any answers, just more propaganda, rhetoric, and personal attack.

Yep, Alfa. In your world of bean counting, all you're going to get is propaganda, rhetoric, and personal attack. If it can't be quantified, it doesn't exist and therefore must be "emotional." You confuse statistical records with what can or cannot be done.

So I won't waste my time trying to convince you of anything. On the other hand, hopefully others are more open minded...

Imagine if in 1961 after Kennedy's speech about going to the moon, the U.S. had adopted your mentality. No one had ever gone to the moon before. Statistically, it had never been done. So using your logic, we would have been wasting our time even trying.

Or imagine if mankind had adopted your way of thinking early on. You and I would be sitting in a cave today grunting at each other over whether fire can be started or just happens sometimes, instead of debating here in cyberspace.

So my point is: I hope nobody is listening to you. Unfortunately, I know they are. :( You are one of the most listened to DALPA insiders among the Moak disciples. Assuming our goal as a group is restoration (which I fully understand is NOT your goal because you don't think it to be "reasonable" or possible), this does not bode well for C2015.

I'm sure you put a lot of time and effort into this. I'm sure those in your echo chamber appreciate it greatly. I can respect your effort and time sacrifice, but honestly I wish you'd hang it up and stop getting in the way of restoring our profession and our careers. Sorry.

Is it wrong to want to see the real physical DALPA opener or the real physical c12 contract survey results well after they have become a historic artifact? When information is withheld and "facts" are one sided (or perceived to be), emotion is all that is left. I am not overly emotional and try to stay away from personal attacks, but objectively, Carl and 88 make good points which aren't answered, but deflected.

It is my considered opinion that Chairman Donatelli should already have put out an information piece about the JV imbalance. Without that, I have to assume it will be knitted into our contract just like Republics violation was in c12.

Carl is clearly and logically correct when he says that our scope is at the company's pleasure. When is a contract not a contract?

And obviously, you have never met me and don't know me well enough to make any judgement about how well I know someone else. History is no real predictor of what someone who has the bully pulpit will do. Ever heard of a "cramdown"? Sure you have, during most of the summer of 2012! Cheerleaders are very good at keeping you from noticing that your team is getting its butt kicked!

We only have to wait about a year to see if the the 2012 crowd of "doom and gloom if we don't take the first offer" is still in charge (or maybe just back in charge)!

We've already seen how much "leverage" we used to get the FAR 117 LOA with such great gains (a few things were good but the lame 5 month wait for the only real gain was very weak) and now followed up by a slap in the face by announcing the parking of 4 widebodies with NO NOTICE while we were deciding on our new bids based on a false picture...RA is just betting our leadership continues to "take whatever RA wants to offer us".

LP

You have used this analogy twice now. I know you think you are making a point but maybe if you had even a rudimentary knowledge of how we got to the moon (in 1969 by the way 8 years after 1961) you would realize that you are making my point and blowing your view out of the water.

What happened after that speech? Did they put together a rocket, put Neil Armstrong et. al. in the capsule and then launch to the moon? Or maybe did they have a series of unmanned rocket launches, did they shoot dogs into space, did they have Mercury, then Gemini, then Apollo 1, Apollo 2, Apollo 3......up until Apollo 11? Did they learn how to get into the upper atmosphere, then orbit, then spacewalk, then orbital rendezvous, then launch of Saturn 5, then orbit the moon, then LEM extraction and rendezvous, and then they landed on the moon?

Along the way, was there thousands of engineers, mathematicians, astrophysicists, and many other "bean counters" who hammered down problem after problem after problem after problem until they could safely go to the moon.

Now who was more important to the success of Apollo 11, all these problem solvers or the guy sitting on the couch whining and complaining because they haven't gotten to the moon yet?

So yes, I would proudly claim to be some "bean counter" problem solver who moves the operation along in any way possible, rather than a perma-whiner complaint maven who doesn't do crap to help anyone ever and just complains about the efforts of others.

That's how they got to the moon my friend and people like you were nothing but boat anchors along the way.

Who took the first offer?

Don't you remember? No negotiations took place. :rolleyes: