Details on Delta TA
#591
Okay, from memory I once heard that the debate between DALPA and NWALPA about 1.5x vs GS systems didn't in the end make a huge difference in total compensation for the pilots. It was about the same. The difference was where the money went, it was presumed 1.5x favored senior pilots, GS pay favored everyone.
As many of us know, GS doesn't necessarily favor everyone and there a lot of junior pilots flying a lot of hours per month who would love 1.5x but at the same time GS are fun when they're around.
But more importantly, I'm not sure any of that calculation accounted for the WS Mafia- which requires high seniority to pull off.
I think that's why just maybe we take another look at something that accounts for all of the above.
So would 1.5x/2x pay system with a cap plus a GS system add more money and respect seniority but temper the WS Mafia thus requiring more staffing? I.e. help us become more overpaid, under worked and oversexed?
75-80 hours 1.5x pay on credit hours
80+ 2x pay on credit hours
ALV block cap
GS pay 2x pay and excluded from a cap
As many of us know, GS doesn't necessarily favor everyone and there a lot of junior pilots flying a lot of hours per month who would love 1.5x but at the same time GS are fun when they're around.
But more importantly, I'm not sure any of that calculation accounted for the WS Mafia- which requires high seniority to pull off.
I think that's why just maybe we take another look at something that accounts for all of the above.
So would 1.5x/2x pay system with a cap plus a GS system add more money and respect seniority but temper the WS Mafia thus requiring more staffing? I.e. help us become more overpaid, under worked and oversexed?
75-80 hours 1.5x pay on credit hours
80+ 2x pay on credit hours
ALV block cap
GS pay 2x pay and excluded from a cap
#592
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Wow, settle down there Sparky. Vacation selling was something we agreed to at NWA in order to smooth out seasonal demands in flying so we didn't have a cycle of boom and furlough like the airlines had when I started. You have a staffing formula requirement to ensure the company doesn't staff the airline expecting everyone to sell vacation, so it's a win-win. But if it's a deal breaker for you, fine...get rid of it. What about the rest of the letter?
Doesn't sound like an argument you'd normally make. You're normally looking to place things in the concession side of the ledger, when discussing contracts other people advocate for. In fact, you've got such a finally tuned concession radar, it sometimes picks up things that aren't even there.
Did you turn it off for this?
Vacation sellbacks are a concession. In my estimation, a huge concession. If you want to argue in their favor, fine. Just don't kid yourself, and don't kid other posters, into thinking they're not concessionary.
As for the rest of the letter, I said it before: it's a great idea to look for all cumulative ways to reach higher W-2's, and I agree with 75% of what's written. It's the glaring 25% concessions/money garb I disagree with.
#593
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
I completely disagree. I've never seen a green slip. Ever. But that's a different topic. Under this plan, you'd still have green slips...it's just that the wealth would be more evenly distributed. 75 to 85 hours at 1.5X pay does that. 2X pay over 85 would again spread the wealth at the same rate of pay. Also, traditional green slips are still preserved. It takes us away from the winner take all super seniority green slip model. But again, if you're going to burn the place down over that, fine...dump it. What about the rest of the letter? Or are you just feeling grumpy that this didn't come from the MEC?
As for the rest of the letter... asked and answered.
#594
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
#595
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Okay, from memory I once heard that the debate between DALPA and NWALPA about 1.5x vs GS systems didn't in the end make a huge difference in total compensation for the pilots. It was about the same. The difference was where the money went, it was presumed 1.5x favored senior pilots, GS pay favored everyone.
As many of us know, GS doesn't necessarily favor everyone and there a lot of junior pilots flying a lot of hours per month who would love 1.5x but at the same time GS are fun when they're around.
But more importantly, I'm not sure any of that calculation accounted for the WS Mafia- which requires high seniority to pull off.
I think that's why just maybe we take another look at something that accounts for all of the above.
So would 1.5x/2x pay system with a cap plus a GS system add more money and respect seniority but temper the WS Mafia thus requiring more staffing? I.e. help us become more overpaid, under worked and oversexed?
75-80 hours 1.5x pay on credit hours
80+ 2x pay on credit hours
ALV block cap
GS pay 2x pay and excluded from a cap
As many of us know, GS doesn't necessarily favor everyone and there a lot of junior pilots flying a lot of hours per month who would love 1.5x but at the same time GS are fun when they're around.
But more importantly, I'm not sure any of that calculation accounted for the WS Mafia- which requires high seniority to pull off.
I think that's why just maybe we take another look at something that accounts for all of the above.
So would 1.5x/2x pay system with a cap plus a GS system add more money and respect seniority but temper the WS Mafia thus requiring more staffing? I.e. help us become more overpaid, under worked and oversexed?
75-80 hours 1.5x pay on credit hours
80+ 2x pay on credit hours
ALV block cap
GS pay 2x pay and excluded from a cap
My argument is that when you're making conscious decisions to distribute money, it can't end up in two wallets at the same time. If you steer a given amount of capital to outsized (premium) people who WS a lot you're not giving it to people who fly lower schedules. You're giving those people less of an increase. There is no way around it. The people who ask for 1.5>80 are asking for permission to reduce the overall payrate increase available (not the total dollar amount to the group), and steer outsized gains to people who fly a lot. Logic dictates this MUST come at the expense of people who fly regular schedules, and those who drop flying.
Instead, I suggest that all Delta pilots equally deserve more compensation. Ergo, we all should get appropriate payrates. In addition to this, we need a better contract, and the letter correctly points to several areas where we would all benefit (minus vacation sell-backs, and 1.5>80). Furthermore, there are loopholes to be closed, especially Scope, especially on the large-gauge end, and staffing issues to addressed, including the possibility of a cap. These are all pro-Delta pilots initiatives.
The letter doesn't need to be burned, it needs a few interventions with a black marker.
#596
#597
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Completely agree. And as evidenced by some of the licking of the lips over vacation sell-back (as an example), protecting ourselves from ourselves might be the biggest challenge in this next contract.
I used to think that people who spoke ONLY about payrates were short-sighted, but at least payrates distribute money to all, in proportion to their seniority and bidding behavior. With everything else, you're making calls on who gets favored, and who gets punished. You have to tread carefully, and help all pilots, not the animals that are more special than others.
I used to think that people who spoke ONLY about payrates were short-sighted, but at least payrates distribute money to all, in proportion to their seniority and bidding behavior. With everything else, you're making calls on who gets favored, and who gets punished. You have to tread carefully, and help all pilots, not the animals that are more special than others.
#598
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
In addition, using the loophole of the SB/SWF, junior guys have been able to work with their friends to maximize their schedule. You can't ride someone else's seniority for a GS.
Furthermore, SWP is broken, because of SB/SWF, and because we process WS before SWP. A senior guy can't easily improve his schedule without resorting to the gamble of dropping a trip, to WS back his own trip or better. Unless he's unlucky, and people even more senior pick up his rotation AND his target rotation, which they may or may not give to a friend.
In theory, you're absolutely correct about WS being in seniority order, but in reality, the flying that's moving around as a result of the WS process is not necessarily respecting seniority. Let's face it: there are guys getting around seniority by bidding socially with their buddies, and are steering more of the flying their way. Now they want special rewards for it.
#600
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,568
When were we allowed to sell our vacations?
Wow, settle down there Sparky. Vacation selling was something we agreed to at NWA in order to smooth out seasonal demands in flying so we didn't have a cycle of boom and furlough like the airlines had when I started. You have a staffing formula requirement to ensure the company doesn't staff the airline expecting everyone to sell vacation, so it's a win-win. But if it's a deal breaker for you, fine...get rid of it. What about the rest of the letter?
Carl
Carl
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