Details on Delta TA
06-13-2015 | 12:55 PM
#8431
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,971
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From: Kickin’ Back
I continue to caution any "us vs (fill in the blank)". Denny is one of those darn As as are lots of guys urging no votes.
During the bankruptcy years we had several suicides in both companies over, I understand, mostly money. Yes, there will be lots of low educated voters who will look only at the money. However, there will be lots of guys with problems outside their control and we need to separate the two.
Good thing I'm rich and can afford to vote NO
During the bankruptcy years we had several suicides in both companies over, I understand, mostly money. Yes, there will be lots of low educated voters who will look only at the money. However, there will be lots of guys with problems outside their control and we need to separate the two.
Good thing I'm rich and can afford to vote NO
Wish I was in the same boat!
Denny
06-13-2015 | 01:11 PM
#8432
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
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From: 747-400 Captain
If you think I'm a big meanie then ok go for it. Not to blow my own horn but I think I have a reputation on this website over the years as a pretty no nonsense kind of guy that does not, I repeat not get into the name calling etc. Heck, you just called me a meanie, what have I called you?
Meanie.
Carl
06-13-2015 | 01:16 PM
#8433
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 357
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From: CA
What you have posted here is inaccurate.
You are combining two different things. There is a verification threshold. Verification is done by your M.D.,D.O.,D.D.S., D.C.,D.M.D., or D.P.M., A.P.R.N., P.A. - C, or PhD and is credentialed as a licensed clinical psychologist. Verification is required if you use more than 15 days of sick in a rolling 365 days.
There is a medical release threshold of 24 sick days in a rolling 365 or 52 days in a 3 year period. You must first be provided the opportunity to use your provider to satisfy the medical basis for your sick leave; a medical release must be limited to the specific instance in which a pilot claimed sick leave AND the day(s) on which the pilot claimed sick leave and the consecutive day(s) off immediately preceding and succeeding the day(s) on which a pilot claimed sick leave.
These provisions take the CPO out of the verification loop. The only non-medical professional that can be involved in the process is the SVP Flight Operations, and he can only be involved if the medical verification and medical release do not provide sufficient information for them to determine why you used sick leave.
You can read the language in the TA Section 14. The 15 day, 24 day, and 52 day triggers are clearly concessionary. The rest is not, taking non-medical people out of the process, and should enhance our privacy.
You are combining two different things. There is a verification threshold. Verification is done by your M.D.,D.O.,D.D.S., D.C.,D.M.D., or D.P.M., A.P.R.N., P.A. - C, or PhD and is credentialed as a licensed clinical psychologist. Verification is required if you use more than 15 days of sick in a rolling 365 days.
There is a medical release threshold of 24 sick days in a rolling 365 or 52 days in a 3 year period. You must first be provided the opportunity to use your provider to satisfy the medical basis for your sick leave; a medical release must be limited to the specific instance in which a pilot claimed sick leave AND the day(s) on which the pilot claimed sick leave and the consecutive day(s) off immediately preceding and succeeding the day(s) on which a pilot claimed sick leave.
These provisions take the CPO out of the verification loop. The only non-medical professional that can be involved in the process is the SVP Flight Operations, and he can only be involved if the medical verification and medical release do not provide sufficient information for them to determine why you used sick leave.
You can read the language in the TA Section 14. The 15 day, 24 day, and 52 day triggers are clearly concessionary. The rest is not, taking non-medical people out of the process, and should enhance our privacy.
"The only non-medical professional that can be involved in the process is the SVP Flight Operations, and he can only be involved if the medical verification and medical release do not provide sufficient information for them to determine why you used sick leave."
This language is ambiguous, subjective and provides no real protection to the pilot. You can submit a doctors note, the company says it just doesn't provide them with the information they need to determine why you used sick leave and they will need to use their own provider who ends up seeing it a different way and has the final say.
You know this is the case yet you continue to mislead. You are not a pilot advocate and never were. A guy that wants what's best for our pilots would never try to mislead in such a way. I know you have no shame but I am ashamed for you.
06-13-2015 | 01:23 PM
#8435
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 357
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From: CA
Because money is all it's every about right? Even if your numbers were correct, you fail to mention the heinous concessions in this TA. I really hope you are from Ford and Harrison. I don't ever want to fly with a pilot so fixated on one thing. That's how you crash and burn.
06-13-2015 | 01:27 PM
#8436
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,971
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From: Kickin’ Back
Well I don't remember every post so I asked you to list all the horribles that you see and you don't and then tell me I have blinders on. I have heard the same warnings of JV's taking all our flying yet international block hours are growing and the widebody fleet is growing. This place always tries to invent the most horrific results and yet they never seem to occur. George was grossly wrong on 2012 so his predictive record does not impress me. The company paid us off for the 4 years they were out of compliance and it's not rational that they would then agree to some metric they can't hit after they paid us off. You wouldn't accept that deal. Taking the LHR stuff out is good because that is a growth market. I looked at the scope compliance stuff on the alpa site and if I knew how to attach it here I would. You can see that international block hours are going up. APC says the sky is falling, at some point you have cried wolf too much.
1. According to Credit Suisse (sp) after pilot contract costs are applied, this TA will put $100 million a year BACK in Deltas pocket when they apply the new profit sharing metric Company wide. This TA will actually ADD to our profit sharing!
it doesn't cost the company one red cent! Which isn't a bad thing but when you look at the whole deal, you have to consider this...2. Loss if Profit Sharing/buying our own raise along with changing the metric for measuring PTIX. It will lower the payout
3. IMO the company will give another raise to delta employees within the nex 18 months. This should trigger 3.b.4 and provide a 3% (?) raise. Also, the change in how 3.b.4 is calculated makes this clause completely worthless
4. Pulling 75% of the LCA trips out affects not only the 180 claimed by Dalpa but every other FO in the category. Some will be pushed back to reserve. Don't take my word for this. Over on the other forum(where I do not post), a former negotiator said this, not me.
5. More large RJs. I probably could be convinced this isn't a huge bad thing but it is a bad thing.
6. Changing the JV measurement metric. In my book this is a HUGE give back.
7. Sick leave is also a huge give here. Just moving away from the voluntary verification is huge. Allowing the company to question my doctor (who happens to be an AME) is huge. Dr. sure will not be happy about that. When does it stop?
8. New hire freeze to 24 months. Ok, throw them under the bus.
9. On a year to year basis C2015 will be worth less than C2012. What kind of negotiating environment are we in now compared to then?
10. Use sick leave time to determine if you are eligible for a green slip. Fail
11. Did I mention 1.E.9? I'm really not too worried about this one. I don't think any MEC Chairman would be that dumb. But why tempt fate?
12. What is it, ten or fifteen cent raise in per diem by the end of the contract. 15 minutes added to a vacation day and training. Not anywhere near enough.
Okay, here is the list you asked for. tThere are a dozen reasons to say no. Some are big and some are not. In the aggregate this is a NO vote in my book.
Denny
06-13-2015 | 01:31 PM
#8437
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Well I don't remember every post so I asked you to list all the horribles that you see and you don't and then tell me I have blinders on. I have heard the same warnings of JV's taking all our flying yet international block hours are growing and the widebody fleet is growing. This place always tries to invent the most horrific results and yet they never seem to occur. George was grossly wrong on 2012 so his predictive record does not impress me. The company paid us off for the 4 years they were out of compliance and it's not rational that they would then agree to some metric they can't hit after they paid us off. You wouldn't accept that deal. Taking the LHR stuff out is good because that is a growth market. I looked at the scope compliance stuff on the alpa site and if I knew how to attach it here I would. You can see that international block hours are going up. APC says the sky is falling, at some point you have cried wolf too much.
1. How much of the international growth you mention is on new narrow body (737 or smaller) routes to Latin/South America gained from the fallout with AK?
2. When was the last time we took delivery of new wide body jets?
3. When is the next wide body coming?
4. How many of those new wide bodies to come are growth airframes and not replacements for the dwindling 747 fleet for example?
I agree there is some degree of hyperbole in some posts, but if you asked anyone 3 years ago if they thought the company would outright violate a legally binding contract for 3+ years and you got answers in the affirmative, you probably would have called those same people out as belonging to the "sky is falling" camp - and I may have agreed with you. Yet here we are having to debate the merits of said legally binding document when we really shouldn't have to, because the group hired to represent us has told us it's a "good deal". That group hired to represent us has not only disregarded our wishes (survey results), but in some cases gone against.
06-13-2015 | 01:32 PM
#8438
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,518
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From: B737 CA
06-13-2015 | 01:36 PM
#8439
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 357
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From: CA
PROLOGUE
Remember in C2012 when new medical note requirements came up? DALPA said, “The Company can already ask for a note. [So don’t worry].” DALPA went on to say that there were transcripts of the actual agreement with the negotiators so this would not be a problem. Remember what happened? The company went on a rampage demanding notes from many sick calls. In the end, DALPA resolved this issue and we currently are in a steady state.
I do not know the answer to this question, but the question to understand is “Under our current contract, how many pilots are subjected to Section 15B review annually?” My guess is that it is a very small number. (BTW Section 15 is not in the published TA. You should read it.)
We have precedent in both of these situations that will be subject to change as soon as the contract changes. Think about this change and what you would do if you were on the management side.
MY QUALIFICATIONS
MBA Wharton School of Business, Ex McKinsey consultant, Current manager of small New England Psychiatric practice, Current Delta Pilot
PRESENT DAY
WHAT IS IN A MEDICAL NOTE?
This chart below is part of a reminder card handed out to all doctors in our local hospital. Any doctor will recognize this as the first part of a standard initial visit medical note. When you go to the doctor’s office, someone documents many of the things below. The important part to understand is the PMH (past medical history – which can include whatever you or other doctors share with this doctor – Of Note: IT IS HIPAA NOT HIPPA and doctors do not need you to sign a release to share your medical information with another doctor associated with your treatment under HIPAA), PSH (past social history – which can include almost anything about your past that the doctor asks about or you share), MEDS (all current meds and many times past medications), Family History (where you share all your family medical history), Social History (which can include employment, incarceration, military, and many other things), ROS (review of systems) where you tell the doctor about what hurts, and then any outside medical reports.
When you sign a release under Section 14 G 2, your release for a “specific sickness” gives DHC potential access to your entire medical and social history.
There is no doctor’s office that is going to redact sections of your medical note and any serious problem requires you to be honest with your doctor about everything if you want proper treatment. Your medical history should be between you, your medical doctors and your AME. Delta has absolutely no place in this.
DALPA will argue that this release is already in Section 15. Remember, section 15B is only for very specific situations related to your FAA certificate, not about justifying a sick absence. You must think like management. By moving this release to Section 14, it will become commonplace for Delta to ask for a medical release and therefore you automatically release your entire medical history to Delta. I cannot foresee the end game in this change, but it is most definitely very bad.
If I were on the other side (DHC), I would start to question every pilot’s medical justification when that pilot breaks the medical threshold. I would question the validity of the content of the doctor’s note justifying a sick absence (allowed by section 14G3). I would require additional information every time.
I audit or read about 80 medical notes a week – granted, many are not what we may experience in our own medical situations, but many are - and I can tell you that in any given note, there is a ton of information that is not related to the “specific sickness” for which you are seeing the doctor. I also spend a lot of time communicating with disability companies. Disability companies almost always question the treatment of the physician and their “standard of care.” It is a very low threshold to disagree with a doctor’s treatment or diagnosis when it comes to a disability company or in this case DHC. Literally any doctor can question some part of another doctor’s note and disability companies do this all day long. Your doctor has absolutely no skin in the game except his or her pride when it comes to justifying your illness for sick pay. No doctor wants to spend time writing more letters just so you can get paid for your diarrhea. I believe it would be best to think of Delta (DHC) as a disability company in that, in the end, their sole purpose is to save the company money.
By changing this section of the contract, we are opening a can of worms. In addition, we, the pilots, are responsible for all medical costs under the new verification unless it is under the “good faith” basis. The cost and time will be significant.
This was the most poorly negotiated section of the TA and is enough to vote NO regardless of any money involved. Anyone over 50 will probably already have encountered a medical problem that has required FAA review. Anyone under 50 will encounter this situation sometime in their career. You do not want to spend countless hours and dollars defending yourself to Delta while trying to get back your medical from the FAA or trying to get paid for a legitimate sick leave. And you certainly do not want Delta deciding that they are “not able to satisfactorily assess the medical basis for the use of sick leave.” (Section 14G3) If you believe for one minute that there was not a purpose in moving the medical release to Section 14, you are sadly mistaken. This will become the mother of all harassment programs for Delta pilots.
Name withheld by poster. IM for details
Remember in C2012 when new medical note requirements came up? DALPA said, “The Company can already ask for a note. [So don’t worry].” DALPA went on to say that there were transcripts of the actual agreement with the negotiators so this would not be a problem. Remember what happened? The company went on a rampage demanding notes from many sick calls. In the end, DALPA resolved this issue and we currently are in a steady state.
I do not know the answer to this question, but the question to understand is “Under our current contract, how many pilots are subjected to Section 15B review annually?” My guess is that it is a very small number. (BTW Section 15 is not in the published TA. You should read it.)
We have precedent in both of these situations that will be subject to change as soon as the contract changes. Think about this change and what you would do if you were on the management side.
MY QUALIFICATIONS
MBA Wharton School of Business, Ex McKinsey consultant, Current manager of small New England Psychiatric practice, Current Delta Pilot
PRESENT DAY
WHAT IS IN A MEDICAL NOTE?
This chart below is part of a reminder card handed out to all doctors in our local hospital. Any doctor will recognize this as the first part of a standard initial visit medical note. When you go to the doctor’s office, someone documents many of the things below. The important part to understand is the PMH (past medical history – which can include whatever you or other doctors share with this doctor – Of Note: IT IS HIPAA NOT HIPPA and doctors do not need you to sign a release to share your medical information with another doctor associated with your treatment under HIPAA), PSH (past social history – which can include almost anything about your past that the doctor asks about or you share), MEDS (all current meds and many times past medications), Family History (where you share all your family medical history), Social History (which can include employment, incarceration, military, and many other things), ROS (review of systems) where you tell the doctor about what hurts, and then any outside medical reports.
When you sign a release under Section 14 G 2, your release for a “specific sickness” gives DHC potential access to your entire medical and social history.
There is no doctor’s office that is going to redact sections of your medical note and any serious problem requires you to be honest with your doctor about everything if you want proper treatment. Your medical history should be between you, your medical doctors and your AME. Delta has absolutely no place in this.
DALPA will argue that this release is already in Section 15. Remember, section 15B is only for very specific situations related to your FAA certificate, not about justifying a sick absence. You must think like management. By moving this release to Section 14, it will become commonplace for Delta to ask for a medical release and therefore you automatically release your entire medical history to Delta. I cannot foresee the end game in this change, but it is most definitely very bad.
If I were on the other side (DHC), I would start to question every pilot’s medical justification when that pilot breaks the medical threshold. I would question the validity of the content of the doctor’s note justifying a sick absence (allowed by section 14G3). I would require additional information every time.
I audit or read about 80 medical notes a week – granted, many are not what we may experience in our own medical situations, but many are - and I can tell you that in any given note, there is a ton of information that is not related to the “specific sickness” for which you are seeing the doctor. I also spend a lot of time communicating with disability companies. Disability companies almost always question the treatment of the physician and their “standard of care.” It is a very low threshold to disagree with a doctor’s treatment or diagnosis when it comes to a disability company or in this case DHC. Literally any doctor can question some part of another doctor’s note and disability companies do this all day long. Your doctor has absolutely no skin in the game except his or her pride when it comes to justifying your illness for sick pay. No doctor wants to spend time writing more letters just so you can get paid for your diarrhea. I believe it would be best to think of Delta (DHC) as a disability company in that, in the end, their sole purpose is to save the company money.
By changing this section of the contract, we are opening a can of worms. In addition, we, the pilots, are responsible for all medical costs under the new verification unless it is under the “good faith” basis. The cost and time will be significant.
This was the most poorly negotiated section of the TA and is enough to vote NO regardless of any money involved. Anyone over 50 will probably already have encountered a medical problem that has required FAA review. Anyone under 50 will encounter this situation sometime in their career. You do not want to spend countless hours and dollars defending yourself to Delta while trying to get back your medical from the FAA or trying to get paid for a legitimate sick leave. And you certainly do not want Delta deciding that they are “not able to satisfactorily assess the medical basis for the use of sick leave.” (Section 14G3) If you believe for one minute that there was not a purpose in moving the medical release to Section 14, you are sadly mistaken. This will become the mother of all harassment programs for Delta pilots.
Name withheld by poster. IM for details
The reps that said this is OK, and let the pilots decide for themselves shirked their responsibility. There is no other way to say this than the guys promoting this TA are not about the welfare of this pilot group. They are selfish bastages that are only looking out for their lifestyle and progression within the ALPA/management ranks.
. That's why I added the sentence you left out...
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