The Surveys
08-21-2016 | 04:34 AM
#71
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,349
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That is certainly a change from forum sentiment a year ago. Everyone said that management was desperate for a agreement and the only reason TA15 was not vastly better was a MEC corrupted and in managements pocket. All we needed was to show a little resolve and they would throw money at us because they had to have a agreement and we had huge leverage.
The majority doesn't believe there is a quick deal to be had and is not interested in a quick deal. We want the right deal.
Quit pushing the revisionist history, its not fooling anybody and serves no purpose.
You don't actually think you're swaying opinion by repeating lies? Your group keeps repeating them as if it will eventually become truth. Nobody is buying.
08-21-2016 | 05:15 AM
#72
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,960
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From: Power top
The company has come off their previous positions, slightly. But hasn't added significant value. They want to dilute profit sharing in 2 ways, change the sick leave, LCA pulls?, and the pay rates don't lead the industry.
It's their job to keep creating new ways to be cost effective. But when is enough, enough? I know this is business. But even the biggest DAL cheerleader/pilot knows the company doesn't need a damn thing from us to continue the huge profits.
They just need to be honest and stop asking to give back our benefits, we really have given just about everything of value in one form or another. The risk is that many of us are done doing the extra things, forever.
It's their job to keep creating new ways to be cost effective. But when is enough, enough? I know this is business. But even the biggest DAL cheerleader/pilot knows the company doesn't need a damn thing from us to continue the huge profits.
They just need to be honest and stop asking to give back our benefits, we really have given just about everything of value in one form or another. The risk is that many of us are done doing the extra things, forever.
08-21-2016 | 05:46 AM
#74
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,349
Likes: 16
It's like having a cousin addicted to meth. Eventually you quit helping because they will always be back for more. It never ends until you put a stop to it.
08-21-2016 | 10:33 AM
#75
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,823
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From: window seat
What screwed us is the petty childish ranting from Buzz the way he did. It was fine for him to say hey this happened and he didn't agree with it etc but he went full tantrum self immolating victim about it. If the selective caucus stuff isn't fair, get rid of it in the process. But don't squeal like a playground child in front of everyone about how life isn't fair when the very thing you do is used against you.
Some have the opinion that the last POSTA1.0 was good enough and its defeat merely means it needed better marketing and maybe the rearranging of a few deck chairs. That POV is invalid because it has been thoroughly and historically blown out of the water by the large majority of the membership. Its time to move on. POSTA1.0 didn't need a tweak and repackage. It was wholly insufficient. Since then the industry went from well behind us to blowing past us. We've already agreed to their single biggest issue anyway. Its time for them to pay us. The previous approach of TVM hitting singles has been wholeheartedly rejected and that rejection needs to be accepted by them all.
Some have the opinion that the last POSTA1.0 was good enough and its defeat merely means it needed better marketing and maybe the rearranging of a few deck chairs. That POV is invalid because it has been thoroughly and historically blown out of the water by the large majority of the membership. Its time to move on. POSTA1.0 didn't need a tweak and repackage. It was wholly insufficient. Since then the industry went from well behind us to blowing past us. We've already agreed to their single biggest issue anyway. Its time for them to pay us. The previous approach of TVM hitting singles has been wholeheartedly rejected and that rejection needs to be accepted by them all.
08-21-2016 | 10:57 AM
#76
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Joined: Jun 2009
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Probably some truth in Buzz's report along with opinions posted as facts and outright BS, I have heard directly from Reps in both camps. Their versions are not compatible.
The whole thing is a mess with neither side taking the high road and the Pilot group (me include) not knowing what to believe.
If anyone thinks one group is comprised of Saintly do-gooders fighting valiantly for the Pilot group and the other side is evil obstructionists only trying to further a hidden agenda then they are fools.
The Reps and complete DALPA administration are being torn in multiple directions by many things - not every Rep/DALPA staffer has the same motivations but they probably all have a few of these items on their mind:
Doing what think is best for the Pilot group.
Doing what they think is achievable.
Doing what they think the majority of Pilots want.
Keeping promises.
Possible future ALPA/DALPA positions for themselves.
Leaving/killing DALPA.
Feel free to add to the above list.
The bottom line is if DALPA doesn't get its act together the big losers will be us - the Pilot group.
The whole thing is a mess with neither side taking the high road and the Pilot group (me include) not knowing what to believe.
If anyone thinks one group is comprised of Saintly do-gooders fighting valiantly for the Pilot group and the other side is evil obstructionists only trying to further a hidden agenda then they are fools.
The Reps and complete DALPA administration are being torn in multiple directions by many things - not every Rep/DALPA staffer has the same motivations but they probably all have a few of these items on their mind:
Doing what think is best for the Pilot group.
Doing what they think is achievable.
Doing what they think the majority of Pilots want.
Keeping promises.
Possible future ALPA/DALPA positions for themselves.
Leaving/killing DALPA.
Feel free to add to the above list.
The bottom line is if DALPA doesn't get its act together the big losers will be us - the Pilot group.
This is not our first rodeo as observers of the MEC. In 2015, 2015, and LOA's in-between, the pattern is always the same:
-MEC goes in together, negotiates.
-Gerry leaks the least favorable terms, implies that NC is going rogue, but C20 stands firm.
-C20 and friends tell us they stand firm against Moakist [deleted] trying to give up the store.
-Majority commits without C20 and friends,
-Pilots vote.
-Only problem C20 and friends now have is that they're the majority. It's kind of hard to play the pullback game, or the rogue NC game at that point. That, and the fact that there really isn't that much daylight between the 19.
We don't really have a practical negotiation problem that can't be solved. It's actually pretty simple: company has to move up, we have to come down. Company will sit tight until we have an MEC that negotiates aggressively towards a deal, and can say conclusively that "x" is the deal they will stand firmly behind. What we have here, IMO, is a political problem. The 19 own the place, C20 and friends are running the show, but they don't actually have a line from which to pull back, and be the "good" reps. They have to somehow get through this, and convince PD that they're really not coming down off the opener, even though they are, and even though everyone knows they must.
Political imperatives vs. interests of the group.
08-21-2016 | 11:39 AM
#77
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 360
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For years, I have heard that "they didn't follow the survey."
While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.
That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?
If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.
Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.
We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.
If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.
It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.
While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.
That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?
If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.
Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.
We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.
If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.
It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.
08-21-2016 | 12:19 PM
#78
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 993
Likes: 0
From: VEOP Retired! 7ER A was last position
You can keep repeating the same threads, that democracy isn't fun when you are no longer in power, to try and distract from the fact the company paid the ex-ceo over $80 million from Jan. 1 through July, while complaining about their perceived sick abuse by 13,000 pilots to the tune of $50 million, but it won't work anymore.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Yes we find ourselves in the BEST NEGOTIATING ENVIRONMENT EVER, IMO but we are also saddled with the RLA and NMB, which significantly handcuff us in achieving our goals.
I completely agree, the company can afford to restore all of our pay and work rule concessions given during the BK era. Unfortunately, the issue is convincing them it's in their best interest to negotiate rationally with us. Right now, they're not and a "split" MEC sure isn't helping matters.
08-21-2016 | 12:20 PM
#79
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
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08-21-2016 | 12:37 PM
#80
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 993
Likes: 0
From: VEOP Retired! 7ER A was last position
One poster alluded to a 28% pay raise....well a 28% pay raise, even with no changes to profit sharing won't pass a pilot vote right now. A TA with that pay raise would get shot down, and when you consider sick leave, VB, etc....its only going to anger and frurther infuriate the pilot base. Those hourly pay rates for our 767s don't even come within a solar system of the UPS 767 hourly pay rates.
Before anyone chimes in....PAY RATES AND PROFIT SHARING ARE TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES.....DO NOT LUMP THEM IN TOGETHER
Before anyone chimes in....PAY RATES AND PROFIT SHARING ARE TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES.....DO NOT LUMP THEM IN TOGETHER
-JV changes
-VB we couldn't walk away from (Ironclad)
Sick leave AIP would need tweaked and I could live with a slight ALV increase and maybe a little something else. Any other scope changes would be VERY hard to allow. But the pay(rates/vacation/training), retro and absolutely no PS changes (the executive group "holdout" is an auto No for me) offset the few gives. It would be close but I think it would pass.
Fire Away.
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