notEnuf

Tell the Allegiant pilots they're jacking too much.

Scoop

I am not getting your analogy. Are you saying Delta is equivalent to a state job, wheres our pension , and and UPS is Google and the talent they each attract is vastly different? While a public defender and a corporate lawyer are in the same profession they most certainly do not come from the same pool of candidates. There is a huge difference in what makes you competitive as a top paying corporate lawyer vs a public defender. Yes you may get some ideological public defenders who are qualified to work at Huewy Dewy and Cheat'em, but the opposite is rarely true - rarely are new Public Defenders competitively qualified to work as a Top lawyer If they are why bother with Harvard Law?

Same for Google/state computer programmer. Why go to MTI if you are in the same pool of applicants as the University of Phoenix folks?

These folks are all in the same field - far different from the same pool of talent, all equally qualified. UPS, FDX, and DAL are all drawing from the exact same pool of candidates - military Pilots and highly qualified Regional, Corporate Pilots etc.

Eventually the market will force compensation to adjust to demand. Now airline Pilots are very restricted in lateral movement due to seniority lists but eventually if DAL wants to be competitive with new hires DAL will be forced to adjust.

Scoop

Seaslap8

That is not the point. Of course DL is competing w/ FDX/UPS for pilots, but that is a different issue. The marketplace competition between domestic carriers selling seats to price sensitive passengers is the only competitive balance they must take into account...put another way, if we demand UPS rates plus 100%, it doesn't matter to the NMB because it isn't germain to our competitive balance...if however we are demanding UAL rates plus 100% then we have an issue.

longcall

That is not true. We are in negotiations over a labor contract. All that matters is what the market is for that labor.

We have been told over and over that the company's ability to pay is irrelevant to our negotiations. I don't necessarily believe that it is irrelevant but that idea supports the argument that what we get paid is not dependent on how much or little the company is making with respect to our competition. It is dependent only on what other pilots are making, no matter what they carry when they are flying.

The bottom line is, it doesn't really matter what someone on the NMB personally thinks because their job it to get a deal done. If both sides think the box carriers are in our peer group, then they are.

sailingfun

If you look at the history of airlines tying pay to profits is not all that smart. This is my third cycle of airlines going to be profitable forever and the industry fundamentally changed. Been fooled twice already!

gloopy

How can we go for 4 hours a day when our own side is cool with 3:30 with 0:15 of that being a ridiculous "pay no credit"?

We have embraced a devastating baseline that we now have to dig out of, while many of our own guys still think its perfectly fine. Odds are the next TA will include that or something close.

Any amount of "pay no credit" still leaves us with 3:15 and is therefore unacceptable.

longcall

I agree. That isn't what I was saying. I was arguing the opposite. Our pay is determined by the pilot market, not how much profit we are or are not making.

Although when the company is making unheard of amounts of money, it certainly doesn't hurt our cause. It is hard for management to make the case they "need" anything when they are the most profitable airline.

Your statement also shows why we should never allow our PS to come into the pay rate comparisons.

Scoop

So because of previous boom/bust cycles you think the industry will/can never fundamentally change?

You don't see anything different with the current industry then with the last 2 cycles?

I'm sure the business cycle with ups and downs will be around for quite a while but I do believe the industry has changed. Failure to recognize change is just as bad as declaring a change when none has incurred.

Scoop

notEnuf

And that ladies and gentleman is how oppression is stopped. It worked in the 60's. Lawlessness by the normally law abiding is only considered when the law is unjust and oppressive.

p3flteng

What happened to my post?