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-   -   Scope notepad out (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/97644-scope-notepad-out.html)

Bucking Bar 10-09-2016 08:00 PM


Originally Posted by MikeF16 (Post 2220251)
Is it worth $30M? Is it worthless as you say since it's unenforceable? If it is unenforceable anyway, then is it really a give?

Excellent policy questions for the DPA. I eagerly await the answer from their alternative universe where there is no Railway Labor Act.

gzsg 10-09-2016 11:14 PM


Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 2220261)
Then Ken Watts could help you to understand that if the company violates our scope, under this TA, or under C2012, (or under the student counsel the DPA would set up to represent us) our bargaining agent would file a grievance which, as a minor dispute, would receive expedited handling while both sides are required to operate under the status quo. The bargaining agent could seek a variety of remedies from injunctive relief to compensatory and punitive damages.

Thank you for serving your pilots for free. I can only imagine the difficulty of sitting across the table from NWA management, regardless of the forum.

You mean like the intentionally delayed profit sharing grievances Malone just dropped?

Or the previous scope grievance Donatelli settled for peanuts? The one that now makes any future grievance on this same issue impossible to win?

ERflyer 10-10-2016 03:45 AM


Originally Posted by gzsg (Post 2220310)
You mean like the intentionally delayed profit sharing grievances Malone just dropped?

Or the previous scope grievance Donatelli settled for peanuts? The one that now makes any future grievance on this same issue impossible to win?

Jerry,

Look at the big picture. They negotiated a deal. It includes a pay increase of 18% now with retro, going to 30.2% more with profit sharing untouched. A deal bringing our net contract annual value from $3B to $4B by 2019. $1B more by 2019.

That is more valuable than a grievance that was more than likely several years away from resolution and was probably going to fail.

Bucking Bar 10-10-2016 04:11 AM


Originally Posted by gzsg (Post 2220310)
You mean like the intentionally delayed profit sharing grievances Malone just dropped?

Or the previous scope grievance Donatelli settled for peanuts? The one that now makes any future grievance on this same issue impossible to win?

$30,000,000.00 has been called many things ... "peanuts" ... "nothing" ... etc.

The settlement was significant for the fact that the company did not displace, or furlough pilots, as a result. The company's widebody utilization increased. The company's block hours, increased.

It was the largest scope settlement in history. It in no way limits future recovery and should the company again violate 1 P. 4. I believe a reasonable argument could be made for punitive damages.

Now, if you wanted to argue about the distribution methodology, fine. IMHO the distribution was inverted, with the most junior pilots being "harmed" more than the most senior pilots who were not affected at all. I will even go along with an argument on damages.

But you are demonstrably wrong when you write that our contract cannot be enforced, even in the face of thirty million dollars. It is intolerable that you and the uninformed DPA leadership tries to undermine our pilot group by publishing (in Bloomberg none the less) that the Delta pilot contract is not enforceable (and cannot be enforced). The fact the DPA does not understand the most basic tasks involved in pilot representation should be reason enough for any pilot to be embarrassed of association with the DPA.

Why not just start a "I hate all things Delta" club? You can collect donations from guys making more than twice what they did before to drink and wax nostalgic about Northwest Airlines, Doug Steenland and AMFA, while they sit in a dimly lit room, smoke, complain about Delta, play BINGO and blame everything on ALPA.


Tanker1497 10-10-2016 04:49 AM


Originally Posted by ERflyer (Post 2220333)
Jerry,

Look at the big picture. They negotiated a deal. It includes a pay increase of 18% now with retro, going to 30.2% more with profit sharing untouched. A deal bringing our net contract annual value from $3B to $4B by 2019. $1B more by 2019.

That is more valuable than a grievance that was more than likely several years away from resolution and was probably going to fail.

Pay increase isn't even industry standard for all AC types. Full retro is great, no argument there. The pay raises are now industry standard with UA's snap to clause. Will we have a snap to? Doubtful, given the change to 3.B.4
PS untouched is status quo. The grievance was from a past scenario, so throwing it out sets a bad precedence.

Turbo1 10-10-2016 04:50 AM

..........while I find your posts very accurate and informative alpa has set the bar to a very low standard and have demonstrated time after time that they can not be trusted to act in our best interest.

DALMECVolunteer 10-10-2016 05:32 AM


Originally Posted by Tanker1497 (Post 2220359)
Pay increase isn't even industry standard for all AC types. Full retro is great, no argument there. The pay raises are now industry standard with UA's snap to clause. Will we have a snap to? Doubtful, given the change to 3.B.4
PS untouched is status quo. The grievance was from a past scenario, so throwing it out sets a bad precedence.

The compensation information and changes to 3B4 is covered in Negotiators Notepad 16-16.

Section 3 B. 4. and 5. "me too" Clauses Sections 3 B. 4 and 5 were created to facilitate Delta pilots getting a pay review when pay raises or bonuses are granted to other Delta employees. This TA incorporates modifications to 3 B. 4 that were negotiated as part of last year's Tentative Agreement. Section 3 B. 5 of our current contract expired on December 31, 2015 and has not been reinstated in this TA. 3 B. 4 triggers when Delta provides a pay raise to a significant number of our fellow employees. At that time, not only the size of that raise is looked at, our benchmark pay rate (B-757) is also compared to our peers at American and United. We then receive a pay increase of the lesser of the Delta raise, or the average of AA's and UAL's 757 rates versus our own.
Lately, airlines and pilot groups have both considered comprehensive pay, most commonly hourly-pay-plus-profit-sharing value, in negotiations and other comparisons. This TA establishes an "effective hourly rate" model for comparing the three carriers, replacing the existing straight hourly rate comparison. For the purposes of 3 B. 4, each carrier's hourly pay (DAL, AA and UAL) will be adjusted by its relative profit share performance and then compared.
The profit sharing percentage applied to American and United will be limited to no greater than the Delta profit sharing performance for the same period. For example,
if Delta's profit sharing for a given comparison period paid 10%, American's 8% and United's 12%, the hourly rates used for 3 B..4 comparison would be Delta's B-757 increased by 10%, versus American's B-757 plus 8% averaged with United's B-757 plus 10%.

Hope this helps.


Delta MEC Communications Committee Volunteers

Schwanker 10-10-2016 05:38 AM

DalMECvolunteer,

Will people be paid flight pay loss to monitor/post on social media sights?

Your repeat of the notepad doesn't help. But it is interesting our profit sharing counts against us in rate comparison, but if United's profit sharing exceeds ours, we pretend it doesn't?

Tanker1497 10-10-2016 05:40 AM


Originally Posted by DALMECVolunteer (Post 2220382)
The compensation information and changes to 3B4 is covered in Negotiators Notepad 16-16.

Section 3 B. 4. and 5. "me too" Clauses Sections 3 B. 4 and 5 were created to facilitate Delta pilots getting a pay review when pay raises or bonuses are granted to other Delta employees. This TA incorporates modifications to 3 B. 4 that were negotiated as part of last year's Tentative Agreement. Section 3 B. 5 of our current contract expired on December 31, 2015 and has not been reinstated in this TA. 3 B. 4 triggers when Delta provides a pay raise to a significant number of our fellow employees. At that time, not only the size of that raise is looked at, our benchmark pay rate (B-757) is also compared to our peers at American and United. We then receive a pay increase of the lesser of the Delta raise, or the average of AA's and UAL's 757 rates versus our own.
Lately, airlines and pilot groups have both considered comprehensive pay, most commonly hourly-pay-plus-profit-sharing value, in negotiations and other comparisons. This TA establishes an "effective hourly rate" model for comparing the three carriers, replacing the existing straight hourly rate comparison. For the purposes of 3 B. 4, each carrier's hourly pay (DAL, AA and UAL) will be adjusted by its relative profit share performance and then compared.
The profit sharing percentage applied to American and United will be limited to no greater than the Delta profit sharing performance for the same period. For example,
if Delta's profit sharing for a given comparison period paid 10%, American's 8% and United's 12%, the hourly rates used for 3 B..4 comparison would be Delta's B-757 increased by 10%, versus American's B-757 plus 8% averaged with United's B-757 plus 10%.

Hope this helps.


Delta MEC Communications Committee Volunteers

It doesn't help as I've already read that and the leaked TA for days. Compensation doesn't even match UA for several AC. Are you getting FPL to be here?

DALMECVolunteer 10-10-2016 05:58 AM


Originally Posted by Schwanker (Post 2220385)
DalMECvolunteer,

Will people be paid flight pay loss to monitor/post on social media sights?

Your repeat of the notepad doesn't help. But it is interesting our profit sharing counts against us in rate comparison, but if United's profit sharing exceeds ours, we pretend it doesn't?

Yes. As per previous communications from the MEC.

The profit sharing of other air lines is included in the new 3B4 pay calculation.

Delta MEC Communications Committee Volunteers


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