Endeavor retention package
01-30-2015, 05:28 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Home with my family playing with my daughter as much as possible
Posts: 591
Originally Posted by vilcas
Captains are not special. They are in command of the flight and as such are paid more. A restaurant manager makes more than the assistant manager. This is not because the assistant is incapable just the way the hierarchy of pay goes in the United States. There are plenty of first officers who underestimate the role of the captain. I will say that the pay disparity should not be as significant as it is.
I respect the responsibility of the Captain.
01-30-2015, 05:36 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,648
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
This is incorrect. SKW Inc agreed to the 2nd lowest rate reset at years 5/10 in exchange for the 15 year CPA they signed during the purchase of ASA in 2005. In exchange, they got ASA for $0.50 on the dollar, and they own the C North gates in ATL (which DL is leasing back right now).
01-30-2015, 06:33 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: FIRE ALPA
Posts: 3,082
Originally Posted by JohnLocke
Is it 20k once a year for 4 years or 20k every 4 years for 16 years?
Last edited by Avroman; 01-30-2015 at 06:45 AM.
01-30-2015, 06:43 AM
#76
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: B-767 FO
Posts: 554
Originally Posted by AlaskaBound
Not true. And...what's the upgrade time currently at Endeavor? About 7 years or maybe closer to 8?
It's more than just equiptment. It's bloch plus current and future is different. When I was hired, it was street hires, 5 years later I was a CA, at 8+ years I'm an FO.
Vilcas - How many downgraded Captains still need to re-upgrade before the 8 year FO's get their first chance to Upgrade?
01-30-2015, 06:47 AM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 208
Originally Posted by vilcas
Looking at current upgrade time is not a useful metric in predicting future upgrade time. New hires beware, anyone pointing to current upgrade times is giving you irrelevant information. There have been places where upgrade time was zero and that changed to 2 years and places where it was 2 years and it went to zero. I would guess upgrade time for a new hire in jan 2015 will be 2 years. You will definitely not wait 7.
01-30-2015, 07:12 AM
#79
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,524
A few factors in play on upgrades, and even that has a variable on if it's a downgraded person or a FO protected by Bloch.
I'll try to make it short and easy to understand, cause it can get complicated very quickly with bloch and overall longevity, especially with the 3 groups in the ISL and the longevity differences at some spots.
Assuming we have more new hires than attrition (been true thus far in 2015, but yes, that's 1 month in)....upgrades depend on the following:
1. DL SSP "movement" (actual departure). That's 144 this year.
2. Other CA departures (other majors/Lcc's).
3. FO attrition overall
4. Fleet plan
To #4- if we continue to be net positive on pilots, the plan is to remain operating some -200's. It's a moving target, but we are operating 50-ish with all 81 -900's delivered. The lines in the -200 aren't nice due to block hour reductions, but once we hit a steady state point, the training requirements is only maintaining, not growth movement. Meaning, you will have upgrades to the 200 and 900 and new hires will primarily go to the -200, as the -900 pays a little more, not much, but with NYC not the junior side, it is realistic to view most NH's going to the 200 with a few getting the 900.
The next caveat when talking upgrades is the bloch award that is with us through june of next year. Call it 18 months in reality with vacancies. Until the expiration most upgrades in the 900 will be XJ in each vacancy, with seniority rules after XJ hits 279. Pre-merger 9E will likely stay above the 95 -900 min without a vacancy impact. On the 200, those will be filled at 541:100 to pre-merger 9E's favor. I do not see a realistic way that anyone who is outside of Pre-merger Pinnacle or Mesaba will hold a 200 CA vacancy prior to bloch expiration. The math just doesn't work unless we get a boatload of -200's back with massive hiring. Not likely.
In answering the question of longevity, that's also a shotgun analysis as the seniority list range of the downgraded CA's and "senior" FO's is a mix of all 3 merger groups with a longevity spread of multiple years between pilots. So where I can be an 8+ guy, there can be a 7+ year guy who is junior and a CA due to bloch, just as there is 9+ year guys as FO. Realistically, if hiring is net positive, I think it's entirely possible that after the 18 month point (as DL will be fulfilling the hiring commitment in 2016 an beyond) that the model of a 3-4 year upgrade is realistic.
In the end it comes down to attrition and hiring. $80K and a shot at DL is the method. It would not surprise me to see the DL SSP offered to all pilots (meaning new hires as well) once the opportunity starts flirting with the bottom of the current SSP eligibility list.
Just personal thoughts.
I'll try to make it short and easy to understand, cause it can get complicated very quickly with bloch and overall longevity, especially with the 3 groups in the ISL and the longevity differences at some spots.
Assuming we have more new hires than attrition (been true thus far in 2015, but yes, that's 1 month in)....upgrades depend on the following:
1. DL SSP "movement" (actual departure). That's 144 this year.
2. Other CA departures (other majors/Lcc's).
3. FO attrition overall
4. Fleet plan
To #4- if we continue to be net positive on pilots, the plan is to remain operating some -200's. It's a moving target, but we are operating 50-ish with all 81 -900's delivered. The lines in the -200 aren't nice due to block hour reductions, but once we hit a steady state point, the training requirements is only maintaining, not growth movement. Meaning, you will have upgrades to the 200 and 900 and new hires will primarily go to the -200, as the -900 pays a little more, not much, but with NYC not the junior side, it is realistic to view most NH's going to the 200 with a few getting the 900.
The next caveat when talking upgrades is the bloch award that is with us through june of next year. Call it 18 months in reality with vacancies. Until the expiration most upgrades in the 900 will be XJ in each vacancy, with seniority rules after XJ hits 279. Pre-merger 9E will likely stay above the 95 -900 min without a vacancy impact. On the 200, those will be filled at 541:100 to pre-merger 9E's favor. I do not see a realistic way that anyone who is outside of Pre-merger Pinnacle or Mesaba will hold a 200 CA vacancy prior to bloch expiration. The math just doesn't work unless we get a boatload of -200's back with massive hiring. Not likely.
In answering the question of longevity, that's also a shotgun analysis as the seniority list range of the downgraded CA's and "senior" FO's is a mix of all 3 merger groups with a longevity spread of multiple years between pilots. So where I can be an 8+ guy, there can be a 7+ year guy who is junior and a CA due to bloch, just as there is 9+ year guys as FO. Realistically, if hiring is net positive, I think it's entirely possible that after the 18 month point (as DL will be fulfilling the hiring commitment in 2016 an beyond) that the model of a 3-4 year upgrade is realistic.
In the end it comes down to attrition and hiring. $80K and a shot at DL is the method. It would not surprise me to see the DL SSP offered to all pilots (meaning new hires as well) once the opportunity starts flirting with the bottom of the current SSP eligibility list.
Just personal thoughts.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
