^^ 100% right


I think this violates the 10 hour rest period. (Personal Opinion) this is just another example of why we need to update our reserve rules.

I'd like to add my $0.02 and mention this is one reason why the rsv loa was so bad. We would have lost that element of control with proffering. Good riddance!

I get it. The only thing I didn't like about the proffering and confirming was if you didn't get what you bid you were assigned the earliest Legal RAP. The proffering and not confirming or forcing the RAP2 has to given up in order fix the reserve system.

So I am having a hard time getting to NY for Stand by 3 tomorrow (3pm-11pm).. They canceled all flight to LGA and everything else is oversold even connections. I called CS and I took screen shots of stand by lists is there anything else I should do to CYA for commuter policy? They said they'd put a PG for tomorrow and then I would have to talk to thr chief pilot.

All you need are the standby tickets from the two flights that you tried to get on that would have gotten you in prior to your show time. That’s it....

Thanks babs.

Also, does anyone know how there's a really jr FO on the reserve list in DFW?

On CCI under documents use the reserve list command and fill in the blanks for base, date, type and seat. Then just have a look at who is on the list and what their seniority number is.

Yeah that's my question, I pulled up the reserve list for DFW and it is showing a jr FO on the reserve list for EMJ, I am talking way jr

Maybe a reservist from another base that was DH in because DFW FO RSRV was short..

Just a guess I have not looked at the staffing levels.


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Ok I see who you’re talking about. Someone who took up a Sim instructor position perhaps?

Huhhhh thats weird, they told me you have to upgrade first in order to be a sim instructor

I don’t know I was just taking a guess.

Probably a CS mixup, I've seen new hires on captain reserve lists, or CRJ pilots on EMJ list. Check again tomorrow and they'll probably be gone.

It’s worth following up on for sure. Several months ago, several FOs flowed to DFW out of seniority order. Those considered to be harmed were compensated.

This is good info, who would one follow up with?

Your union FO rep

He could of got DFW via a mutual transfer agreement or a hardship that was awarded by the CPO. Or it could be a mistake. Or on purpose and out of seniority order.

New guy reserve questions
 

I have a couple questions about how reserve works.

1. When you receive those email that say you are pre-assigned RAP1 for a future Reserve date, can you still proffer for and be awarded something other than RAP1, or is that saying that you are for sure going to be RAP1 regardless of what you proffer for?

2. What do all of the codes on the N6D mean? i.e., "TL", "ML", "MR", "FLY"?

1. Yes.

2. Removal codes. Except FLY which means, well, they're flying. Check out FOS Codes under Flight Bid and Crew Info on my envoy air.

1. Yes. You can Proffer for a trip, RAP, or stby. If your seniority can hold you the trip you will get it. RAPs and stby are preferences and don't have to be awarded in seniority order, although they mostly (in my experience) honor it these days.

2. There are a ton of codes and there's a link on myenvoy that show all of these...but for now TL is Transition Legality, ML Military Leave, MR Military Reserve (I think) and FLY is a rsv on a trip.

thanks for the info! that FOS codes doc is helpful.

So what is the difference between "FLY" and when a reserve pilots flies and has a sequence number added on their schedule?


I didn't know that proffers for airport standby and rap's didn't have to be awarded in seniority order? I thought pretty much everything was seniority based (assuming that what you are bidding/proffering for is available).

The sequence number will show up on the first and last day on the N6D. The days in between will show FLY.

thanks for the info!


how is CS working consolidation time for new guys? are they pretty much waiting until the last few weeks to cram it all in if guys aren't getting called on reserve, or will they throw flights in here and there out of seniority order in order to get consolidation time?

Basically, is there any reliable (or semi-reliable) way to predict consolidation time?

Of the 4 months I was on reserve, I was given a RAP or standby assignment out of seniority order at least once in each of those months (perhaps more than that but those are the times I noticed). I think there is supposed to be some operational necessity (like it makes no sense to give you RAP3 on your last day would be an obvious one but there's other scenarios less obvious). The first time, I could not even understand the reason so I called to complain to no avail. The third time, they gave me a Standby 1 when I proffered for RAP2 and the junior guy that got RAP2 had the same schedule as me. The second and forth time, I could guess an operational necessity by looking at the reserve list.

yeah i knew that sometimes what you proffered for might not be available to you in seniority order due to things like rest (guys junior to you get what you proffered for instead of you because they don't have enough rest to do anything else.)

But i did think that barring things like that (operational necessity) that it would(should) be awarded in seniority order, and that if a mistake was made you could call CS and have it straightened out.

That's why I qualified it with "in my experience." I'm very junior in a status with very little movement and in my nearly year stint on rsv I have had very few issues with rap/stby and only not been able to proffer out of preassigned rap 1 once. IT hasn't been perfect, but it also hasn't been the god awful nightmare I was afraid it would be. YMMV.

The one time I tried to call and straighten it out, they wouldn't change it.

Yeah, I've never had an issue proffering out of the default rap 1 when I wanted to.

You are supposed to notify scheduling when you are 30 days from the deadline. They will give you trips coded as low time.

Proffering out of RAP 1 is all about how many people are on RAP1 and how senior you are.

Putting those two sentences together seems to refer to two different cases as though they are one.

The time I called to try and argue my case, I proffered for RAP 1 because it was my last day and I was doing a two leg commute then. Someone junior to me got RAP 1 and I got RAP 2. So not really the same scenario you're describing. The time that I didn't bother to call and argue my case was when I proffered for RAP 2 and they gave me Standby 1 and someone junior to me got RAP 2. In both cases, it appeared to me the other guy had the same schedule constraints as I did so I don't know why they did it. Just pointing out they don't always follow seniority for reserve assignments and it's not always clear why.

I never had a problem getting out of RAP 1 on the first day when I wanted to. When I was two let commuting, there was no way for me to confirm at 5 and not already be on my commute so I never bothered to try to proffer out of it... I was going to be there anyway. But once I was in DFW for the short one leg commute, I successfully proffered out of the RAP 1 on the first day every single time. Just pointing out that it's easy to get out of the default RAP 1. But I understand why long distance commuters hate it so much because you can't take the chance.

Not only is this a contract violation, but this violates an arbitrator's specific ruling that seniority must be honored when awarding RAP preferences, if all else is equal.

I didn't know about the arbitrator's ruling. When I read the contract the language seemed a little murky on reserve assignment seniority though (don't have it with me right now). Also, the reason I didn't bother calling in the second instance to argue is that in the first instance, I was basically told "tough" and "we'll consider this call confirmation of your RAP 2". I did not want to risk "confirming" on the second instance given there is a way out of that one.

When we lost the grievance over the company's unilateral invention of "default" RAPs, the arbitrator's ruling mentioned that even though the company was allowed to give out default RAPs, that they still had to honor seniority when giving out RAPs, as per our contract. The rumor I heard is that our petty management refused to sign the arbitration award because they didn't want to be beholden to that detail, though they still give out default RAPs. I heard that rumor secondhand, unconfirmed.

RAP vs Standby
 

I have not found anything in writing but I was told the language allows them to give you a standby if it is anywhere on your proffer that the order you submit the PREFERENCES on your proffer in is not considered.

Yep. Standbys are given out first and if they are anywhere in your list of preferences, regardless of order, you'll get it. The contract document does spell that out in a Q and A. So, when they get to your name and you have RAP2 then Standby2, you'll get the standby 2 if they still need one even if they also still need a RAP2. Pretty dumb way of handing out assignments if you ask me.

Not quite right. Standby shifts are contractually considered flight assignments. Flight assignments are considered in order and then Rap proffers. If you proffer for trips, then standby, then rap they will be awarded in that order. If you proffer trips, raps, standbys the standby will go ahead of the rap. Only raps and standbys the standbys will be considered before raps. A standby will not, however, jump up over another flight assignment proffered for.

This is correct. When the next day desk starts working on assignments for the next day after the proffering window closes, the order of assignments is as follows: 1. Flight Assignments 2. Standby Shifts 3. RAPs. They will award each of theses assignments in that order. When someone says "If you proffer for a standby shift, you're automatically gonna get it". That's partially true. If you proffer for only standby shifts and RAPs, then they won't even look at your RAP proffers, they will award you the standby shift since that's the how the order of assignments are done. BUT...if you have an actual trip in your proffers, you will get assigned that first before anything else, assuming the actual trip doesn't go to someone senior.

Pilot Contract Q&A 12-2 doesn't exactly say the same you two.

Before getting overly complicated, look at the bid packets themselves. They will tell you standby and RAPs aren't proffers.

I agree that this is how it is suppose to happen. However, Flights and Standby shifts are awarded simultaneously. So if you are the bottom guy and you only proffer for a stand by shift and there are open flights you are legal for, then CS will most likely give you the airport stand by shift you proffered for.

When CS looks at your proffers then you will almost without fail flight, airport standby and then a RAP are looked at in that order. So if your last proffer is a flight and you are senior enough to get it then you will get that flight.