False advertising by Envoy
05-04-2018, 06:06 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 540
Originally Posted by Podrick
While we're at it I'll join in. These graphs they put out there show you earning the entire FO retention bonus, and yet its a complete scam based on how its structured.
For example, I came off probation in the middle of 12/2017. I will not receive the first installment until June 2018, a second in September 2018, at which point I will likely be forced to upgrade and therefore lose the rest of the bonus.
In the end thats $15,000 in compensation that recruiters sold to me that I will never see.
For example, I came off probation in the middle of 12/2017. I will not receive the first installment until June 2018, a second in September 2018, at which point I will likely be forced to upgrade and therefore lose the rest of the bonus.
In the end thats $15,000 in compensation that recruiters sold to me that I will never see.
A: The vacuum cleaner has the dirt bag on the inside.
05-04-2018, 09:36 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by Podrick
While we're at it I'll join in. These graphs they put out there show you earning the entire FO retention bonus, and yet its a complete scam based on how its structured.
For example, I came off probation in the middle of 12/2017. I will not receive the first installment until June 2018, a second in September 2018, at which point I will likely be forced to upgrade and therefore lose the rest of the bonus.
In the end thats $15,000 in compensation that recruiters sold to me that I will never see.
For example, I came off probation in the middle of 12/2017. I will not receive the first installment until June 2018, a second in September 2018, at which point I will likely be forced to upgrade and therefore lose the rest of the bonus.
In the end thats $15,000 in compensation that recruiters sold to me that I will never see.
05-05-2018, 02:18 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 239
Originally Posted by Podrick
While we're at it I'll join in. These graphs they put out there show you earning the entire FO retention bonus, and yet its a complete scam based on how its structured.
For example, I came off probation in the middle of 12/2017. I will not receive the first installment until June 2018, a second in September 2018, at which point I will likely be forced to upgrade and therefore lose the rest of the bonus.
In the end thats $15,000 in compensation that recruiters sold to me that I will never see.
For example, I came off probation in the middle of 12/2017. I will not receive the first installment until June 2018, a second in September 2018, at which point I will likely be forced to upgrade and therefore lose the rest of the bonus.
In the end thats $15,000 in compensation that recruiters sold to me that I will never see.
Besides, why would you want an FO retention bonus when you can be making captain pay and have a much higher rate for OT? I get the perks of higher seniority and staying in a particular base/aircraft, but wanting FO wages + retention vs. CA pay doesn’t seem to make sense.
FO: $37000 + $10000(bonus) = $46000
Junior CA: $60-65k + $99-105 OT rate (after considering the 1.5x)
(Numbers are very approximate)
I’m fairly certain the $15,000+ in compensation you feel that you will never see will be supplied by your higher wage. In overall earnings you should come out ahead. Am I missing something??
05-05-2018, 04:51 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: FO
Posts: 793
False advertising by Envoy
Originally Posted by Whiskey4
Was the company doing forced upgrades when you were hired or initially started talking with recruiters? Remember, recruiters don’t have a crystal ball. I doubt they were trying to screw you, and they just shared the best information available at the time. Back in 2017 First Officers appeared to have a reasonable expectation of receiving the full retention bonus.
Besides, why would you want an FO retention bonus when you can be making captain pay and have a much higher rate for OT? I get the perks of higher seniority and staying in a particular base/aircraft, but wanting FO wages + retention vs. CA pay doesn’t seem to make sense.
FO: $37000 + $10000(bonus) = $46000
Junior CA: $60-65k + $99-105 OT rate (after considering the 1.5x)
(Numbers are very approximate)
I’m fairly certain the $15,000+ in compensation you feel that you will never see will be supplied by your higher wage. In overall earnings you should come out ahead. Am I missing something??
Besides, why would you want an FO retention bonus when you can be making captain pay and have a much higher rate for OT? I get the perks of higher seniority and staying in a particular base/aircraft, but wanting FO wages + retention vs. CA pay doesn’t seem to make sense.
FO: $37000 + $10000(bonus) = $46000
Junior CA: $60-65k + $99-105 OT rate (after considering the 1.5x)
(Numbers are very approximate)
I’m fairly certain the $15,000+ in compensation you feel that you will never see will be supplied by your higher wage. In overall earnings you should come out ahead. Am I missing something??
People want to work for a honest & ethical business. Take away the choice of position from a man or woman and you literally make them “serfs” in a feudalism business. Serfdom is no bueno. Neither is white lies to the ears of God and the blind fold of justice.
Last edited by SilentLurker; 05-05-2018 at 05:17 AM.
05-05-2018, 05:17 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 147
Originally Posted by Podrick
While we're at it I'll join in. These graphs they put out there show you earning the entire FO retention bonus, and yet its a complete scam based on how its structured.
For example, I came off probation in the middle of 12/2017. I will not receive the first installment until June 2018, a second in September 2018, at which point I will likely be forced to upgrade and therefore lose the rest of the bonus.
In the end thats $15,000 in compensation that recruiters sold to me that I will never see.
For example, I came off probation in the middle of 12/2017. I will not receive the first installment until June 2018, a second in September 2018, at which point I will likely be forced to upgrade and therefore lose the rest of the bonus.
In the end thats $15,000 in compensation that recruiters sold to me that I will never see.
I can’t believe that this industry has gotten to the point where people complain about upgrading. You’ll make the difference back within the first year.
05-05-2018, 05:19 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: FO
Posts: 793
False advertising by Envoy
Originally Posted by in2deep
I can’t believe that this industry has gotten to the point where people complain about upgrading. You’ll make the difference back within the first year.
Tell that to as many AA pilots as there are Envoy pilots, PSA pilots, Piedmont pilots combined who do not want to upgrade at mainline. We are not mainline, yet still, Regional Industry wide, IT IS A CHOICE. I know plenty who held out of upgrade “back in the days” for better QOL/family, etc.
Your sentiments are misplaced. It’s not a generation things. Some who want it ASAP, some who do not yet for various reasons including family structure, seniority QOL. Has nothing to do with millennialist mentality. Love of Money might rule your life but not everyone’s life, or family.
Last edited by SilentLurker; 05-05-2018 at 05:35 AM.
05-05-2018, 06:12 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 239
Originally Posted by SilentLurker
Why should anyone have to Upgrade just to work OT & make up for the the “40 acre and a mule” originally promised in written advertisement, and speeches from recruiters? This is where the disconnect occurs & bad blood festers. When you come to a company expecting to earn a certain amount; flow at a certain time, and to find out it was all white lies. Creates animosity and distrust very early.
People want to work for a honest & ethical business. Take away the choice of position from a man or woman and you literally make them “serfs” in a feudalism business. Serfdom is no bueno. Neither is white lies to the ears of God and the blind fold of justice.
People want to work for a honest & ethical business. Take away the choice of position from a man or woman and you literally make them “serfs” in a feudalism business. Serfdom is no bueno. Neither is white lies to the ears of God and the blind fold of justice.
I love how you seem to think that ebbs and flows in a highly cyclical industry should not have any effect on “your expectations” that you had when you got hired. My old man didn’t plan on having his pension stolen by UAL. I didn’t plan on Congress passing the Age 65 Rule effectively freezing my career in plan for 5 years so others (and the airlines) could benefit. So forgive me if I’m amused by you thinking that anything in this industry does or should revolve around your personal expectations. Anything any airline or it’s recruiters promises you is a mere snapshot with a reasonable projection of what they believe is to come under current conditions/variables.
Try putting yourself in the shoes of an ExpressJet pilot who lost both Delta and AA contracts. You complain about feeling like a serf at a stable and growing airline with an opportunity to move to mainline and relatively guaranteed seniority movement until you leave??? Cry me a river...
05-05-2018, 06:26 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 263
Originally Posted by SilentLurker
The company can do whatever it wants because they have their own math and reality to support their stance. Is it legal? Maybe maybe not, Grieve it.
Company gets what it wants and needs in the present at all times, until 1-2yrs after the grievance is skidded down the road. If grievance arbitrator sides with union, the “reparations” MAYBE TOO SMALL, will be far to small or late to make any difference to those affected.
Truth is company doesn’t NEED to do anything unless management:
1. Wants to- per Contract interpretation, Policy, Strategic goals.
2. Is forced to by AAG.
3. Judge/grievance arbitrators orders it.
4. Market conditions necessitates it.
ALPA as a Union is only as strong as its memberships supports it, and memberships involvement (file the grievance). APC & TalkAirline forums has its usefulness at times for both company and unions favor, but Strong membership involvement (reading the contract, calling reps & volunteer, learning from those in the union) & strong membership support of the Union (stop bad mouthing, complaining, spreading non-factual information, rumors to pilot group, bad mouthing MEC, LEC) etc. A divided union is weak union.
Company has the edge thanks to RLA. But RLA allows us a seat at the table, and market conditions gives us a little leverage (not as great a leverage as some might think).
We live in the age of instant gratification. Cards are stacked against regional pilots and meaningful progress & processes for pilots take time. Many wheels make a tuned time-clock turn. Can’t force this company into a position it does not see it needs.
Company gets what it wants and needs in the present at all times, until 1-2yrs after the grievance is skidded down the road. If grievance arbitrator sides with union, the “reparations” MAYBE TOO SMALL, will be far to small or late to make any difference to those affected.
Truth is company doesn’t NEED to do anything unless management:
1. Wants to- per Contract interpretation, Policy, Strategic goals.
2. Is forced to by AAG.
3. Judge/grievance arbitrators orders it.
4. Market conditions necessitates it.
ALPA as a Union is only as strong as its memberships supports it, and memberships involvement (file the grievance). APC & TalkAirline forums has its usefulness at times for both company and unions favor, but Strong membership involvement (reading the contract, calling reps & volunteer, learning from those in the union) & strong membership support of the Union (stop bad mouthing, complaining, spreading non-factual information, rumors to pilot group, bad mouthing MEC, LEC) etc. A divided union is weak union.
Company has the edge thanks to RLA. But RLA allows us a seat at the table, and market conditions gives us a little leverage (not as great a leverage as some might think).
We live in the age of instant gratification. Cards are stacked against regional pilots and meaningful progress & processes for pilots take time. Many wheels make a tuned time-clock turn. Can’t force this company into a position it does not see it needs.
Talking of an active pilot group.... can we please drive a stake in the ground over the term regional airline? That term not only inaccurately describes our flying but negatively impacts our mission to get paid for what we actually do. There may be regional flying done by other AA partners but Envoy flying is not one of them. We are an AA wholly owned subsidiary flying in North America. Mainline often shares the same routes we do but at different times of the day or season. “Change the language, change the pay.”
You listening ALPA? Time for a new initiative and a new sticker for my crew bag!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
