Here Comes Swayne
06-20-2019, 12:18 PM
#371
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,510
Originally Posted by henryjj
Here’s a question. Do you honestly think his videos have enough pull to determine the success or failure of a contract worth tens of millions of dollars over time? I seriously doubt it. And if he does, he shouldn’t be a regional airline pilot.
And apparently the company is going after those that say anything negative, so the least we can do is try to prevent ANYTHING that could POSSIBLY be positive.
Last edited by pitchattitude; 06-20-2019 at 12:32 PM.
06-20-2019, 12:22 PM
#372
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 311
Here Comes Swayne
Originally Posted by henryjj
Here’s a question. Do you honestly think his videos have enough pull to determine the success or failure of a contract worth tens of millions of dollars over time? I seriously doubt it. And if he does, he shouldn’t be a regional airline pilot.
So by your rationale, no single person affects any real change, is that it?
So do you advocate littering as well, since your garbage thrown out the window driving down the highway won’t completely destroy the environment single handedly, correct?
Your logic is flawed. You are attempting to rationalize poor decision making, into not being that big of a deal.
The point is that regardless of whether or not it has a severely negative impact against our pilots during a time of pay negotiations, it doesn’t matter. It’s still not the decent thing to do, because it may potentially harm Pilots by helping recruitment during pay negotiations.
Furthermore, the company is on record directly linking newhire numbers to whether or not they’d raise the pay, so I’d say yes it is entirely possible that a YouTuber could actually influence said contract worth tens of millions over time. Note that I merely said possible.
Last edited by Inclined plane; 06-20-2019 at 12:59 PM.
06-20-2019, 03:01 PM
#373
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 97
Originally Posted by Inclined plane
So by your rationale, no single person affects any real change, is that it?
So do you advocate littering as well, since your garbage thrown out the window driving down the highway won’t completely destroy the environment single handedly, correct?
Your logic is flawed. You are attempting to rationalize poor decision making, into not being that big of a deal.
The point is that regardless of whether or not it has a severely negative impact against our pilots during a time of pay negotiations, it doesn’t matter. It’s still not the decent thing to do, because it may potentially harm Pilots by helping recruitment during pay negotiations.
Furthermore, the company is on record directly linking newhire numbers to whether or not they’d raise the pay, so I’d say yes it is entirely possible that a YouTuber could actually influence said contract worth tens of millions over time. Note that I merely said possible.
So do you advocate littering as well, since your garbage thrown out the window driving down the highway won’t completely destroy the environment single handedly, correct?
Your logic is flawed. You are attempting to rationalize poor decision making, into not being that big of a deal.
The point is that regardless of whether or not it has a severely negative impact against our pilots during a time of pay negotiations, it doesn’t matter. It’s still not the decent thing to do, because it may potentially harm Pilots by helping recruitment during pay negotiations.
Furthermore, the company is on record directly linking newhire numbers to whether or not they’d raise the pay, so I’d say yes it is entirely possible that a YouTuber could actually influence said contract worth tens of millions over time. Note that I merely said possible.
This guy gets it. Thank you.
06-20-2019, 06:38 PM
#374
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 188
Originally Posted by Firefighterpilo
Thank you for proving my point. You are brand new to the industry and have no idea what it really means to fly for a living in the airlines. You are the exact person spouting off the exact stuff I was talking about. You know nothing about the ins and outs of this career except for what you see on his videos, and as shown above you preach it like gospel.
I was flying the not to long ago where pilots were getting paid $20,000 a year sitting on reserve at a regional for 5-7 years. How did management get away with such low salaries and QOL? Because people like you would see videos like this and say “gee golly I want to fly shiny jets and travel in a cool uniform.”
Trust me fella you are new to this game. Check back in when you have been in this career and seen yourself and friends take pay cuts or lose jobs because someone is always willing to fly you plane for cheaper. Your attitude will change..
I am all for him being enthusiastic and loving what he does that is refreshing. But when guys like you, straight out of training tell me videos like this are helping you prepare for the career I become worried. This is literally the blind leading the blind,
You have no idea how bad this career was a few short years ago but as long as people still line up to fly “cool” jets management did and could again get away with racing this profession to the bottom.
What you fail to realize is the only reason salaries and QOL improvements have been happening is because of the pilot shortage, that management created with their own greed. These regional jets he so loves only exists because executives found guys willing to fly mainline routes and mainline legs for pennies on the dollar.
I am excited for him and all the new pilots entering the career it is a good time. but it also was in August 2001, things change and they change quick. We as a profession, need you new guys to know the true reality that this career can bring so you have all the facts.
This is nothing against who he is as a person or pilot. Either way he is just a YouTube guy, he is not hurting anything and enjoying himself, but a lot of us come from a time where these “types” of propaganda greatly undermined this amazing profession, and we are gun shy. I believe rightfully so.
By no mean am I trying to attack you or say your belief is wrong. I just want to educate you where some of us are coming from. Fly safe!
I was flying the not to long ago where pilots were getting paid $20,000 a year sitting on reserve at a regional for 5-7 years. How did management get away with such low salaries and QOL? Because people like you would see videos like this and say “gee golly I want to fly shiny jets and travel in a cool uniform.”
Trust me fella you are new to this game. Check back in when you have been in this career and seen yourself and friends take pay cuts or lose jobs because someone is always willing to fly you plane for cheaper. Your attitude will change..
I am all for him being enthusiastic and loving what he does that is refreshing. But when guys like you, straight out of training tell me videos like this are helping you prepare for the career I become worried. This is literally the blind leading the blind,
You have no idea how bad this career was a few short years ago but as long as people still line up to fly “cool” jets management did and could again get away with racing this profession to the bottom.
What you fail to realize is the only reason salaries and QOL improvements have been happening is because of the pilot shortage, that management created with their own greed. These regional jets he so loves only exists because executives found guys willing to fly mainline routes and mainline legs for pennies on the dollar.
I am excited for him and all the new pilots entering the career it is a good time. but it also was in August 2001, things change and they change quick. We as a profession, need you new guys to know the true reality that this career can bring so you have all the facts.
This is nothing against who he is as a person or pilot. Either way he is just a YouTube guy, he is not hurting anything and enjoying himself, but a lot of us come from a time where these “types” of propaganda greatly undermined this amazing profession, and we are gun shy. I believe rightfully so.
By no mean am I trying to attack you or say your belief is wrong. I just want to educate you where some of us are coming from. Fly safe!
06-20-2019, 07:13 PM
#375
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,235
Originally Posted by Firefighterpilo
Thank you for proving my point. You are brand new to the industry and have no idea what it really means to fly for a living in the airlines. You are the exact person spouting off the exact stuff I was talking about. You know nothing about the ins and outs of this career except for what you see on his videos, and as shown above you preach it like gospel.
I was flying the not to long ago where pilots were getting paid $20,000 a year sitting on reserve at a regional for 5-7 years. How did management get away with such low salaries and QOL? Because people like you would see videos like this and say “gee golly I want to fly shiny jets and travel in a cool uniform.”
Trust me fella you are new to this game. Check back in when you have been in this career and seen yourself and friends take pay cuts or lose jobs because someone is always willing to fly you plane for cheaper. Your attitude will change..
I am all for him being enthusiastic and loving what he does that is refreshing. But when guys like you, straight out of training tell me videos like this are helping you prepare for the career I become worried. This is literally the blind leading the blind,
You have no idea how bad this career was a few short years ago but as long as people still line up to fly “cool” jets management did and could again get away with racing this profession to the bottom.
What you fail to realize is the only reason salaries and QOL improvements have been happening is because of the pilot shortage, that management created with their own greed. These regional jets he so loves only exists because executives found guys willing to fly mainline routes and mainline legs for pennies on the dollar.
I am excited for him and all the new pilots entering the career it is a good time. but it also was in August 2001, things change and they change quick. We as a profession, need you new guys to know the true reality that this career can bring so you have all the facts.
This is nothing against who he is as a person or pilot. Either way he is just a YouTube guy, he is not hurting anything and enjoying himself, but a lot of us come from a time where these “types” of propaganda greatly undermined this amazing profession, and we are gun shy. I believe rightfully so.
By no mean am I trying to attack you or say your belief is wrong. I just want to educate you where some of us are coming from. Fly safe!
I was flying the not to long ago where pilots were getting paid $20,000 a year sitting on reserve at a regional for 5-7 years. How did management get away with such low salaries and QOL? Because people like you would see videos like this and say “gee golly I want to fly shiny jets and travel in a cool uniform.”
Trust me fella you are new to this game. Check back in when you have been in this career and seen yourself and friends take pay cuts or lose jobs because someone is always willing to fly you plane for cheaper. Your attitude will change..
I am all for him being enthusiastic and loving what he does that is refreshing. But when guys like you, straight out of training tell me videos like this are helping you prepare for the career I become worried. This is literally the blind leading the blind,
You have no idea how bad this career was a few short years ago but as long as people still line up to fly “cool” jets management did and could again get away with racing this profession to the bottom.
What you fail to realize is the only reason salaries and QOL improvements have been happening is because of the pilot shortage, that management created with their own greed. These regional jets he so loves only exists because executives found guys willing to fly mainline routes and mainline legs for pennies on the dollar.
I am excited for him and all the new pilots entering the career it is a good time. but it also was in August 2001, things change and they change quick. We as a profession, need you new guys to know the true reality that this career can bring so you have all the facts.
This is nothing against who he is as a person or pilot. Either way he is just a YouTube guy, he is not hurting anything and enjoying himself, but a lot of us come from a time where these “types” of propaganda greatly undermined this amazing profession, and we are gun shy. I believe rightfully so.
By no mean am I trying to attack you or say your belief is wrong. I just want to educate you where some of us are coming from. Fly safe!
Now, a few things to point out. We all agree that he’s kept it factual so there’s no argument there. Because of that, I got a realistic glimpse into things like bidding, reserve, etc... That’s what I was referring too when I said that his videos helped me.
Next, I also said “pending a crisis.” I know we’re only a 9/11, market crash, oil spike away from furloughs. I didn’t say we were say, but the math is still there to support the statement “best time to get into aviation.”
Lastly, $40k/yr is by no means an amount to brag about. But if you plan accordingly, that will get you by until you can make more money as a CA or until you get to a major or LCC. Think I’m lying? That’s my reality right now (actually make a little less than $40k right now) as a married man. I’m not just a kid fresh out of some fancy school with an over priced degree eager to fly a jet. I have a responsibilities just like you all.
To end this, I’d like to say that it’s disheartening to see so many older guys come across salty. I know it’s because you all had it hard for nearly a decade thought. I don’t blame y’all for being jaded at times.
Hope y’all win the fight with management and get a pay raise and better QOL. Y’all deserve at least that.
06-20-2019, 08:02 PM
#376
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,533
Originally Posted by FullThrust
The only reason management got away with such crappy pay and QOL is because you applied and accepted the job. Yet here you are on your high horse giving someone a hard time for the exact same thing you did (for less money and QOL even). Perspective.
06-20-2019, 08:12 PM
#377
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,533
Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer
To end this, I’d like to say that it’s disheartening to see so many older guys come across salty. I know it’s because you all had it hard for nearly a decade thought. I don’t blame y’all for being jaded at times.
Hope y’all win the fight with management and get a pay raise and better QOL. Y’all deserve at least that.
Most of my friends in this business have been in the industry nearly as long as me and yet none of them let’s this job define them and they all are great people to hang around on any given day. They are NOT salty, crusty old dogs.
It’s perspective. Fight the fight, but don’t take it home with you. Don’t become that miserable dude we all HATE flying with. 😉
06-20-2019, 09:37 PM
#378
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 198
Typoooss I apologize
Last edited by Firefighterpilo; 06-20-2019 at 09:55 PM.
06-20-2019, 09:53 PM
#379
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 198
[QUOTE=Firefighterpilo;2840597]
I appreciate everyone’s input and opinion on here the debates help me have a robust understanding of different view points. I am in no way trying to appear salty i guess I did a bad job but was merely trying to help illustrate where some opinions on this matter may come from. I am only trying to show the possible thought process some may have. I honestly do not care one way or another. I genuinely love seeing people passionate about flying and excited about reaching their goals one reason I still instruct on occasion. I am merely trying to show you the negative reality that you could, but hopefully not, encounter in your long quest of this great career. This way some of you can do better maintaining an appropriate level of optimism then did. I learned the hard way that just wanting and expecting things to go a certain way, seldom ensures it does.
No high horse at all I am just providing a more realistic view of the industry. I absolutely did accept a job at that pay in the early 2000s. My airline management at that time was using bullet points identical to what Envoy recruiters, and these types of youtube videos are preaching to pilot prospects today. I honestly believe management has used the same recruiting propaganda for 40 years to get butts in seats and then recycle them from airline to airline. Back then I was promised fast movement, flow and upgrade in under 2 years with some new FOs holding lines right off IOE. None of which came to fruition in large part to outside forces that no one predicted or expected at the time. The era before the lost decade and the current climate are eerily similar in breadth prediction. In this industry things can and usually do change very rapid and unpredictability.
I was fortunate enough to have the majority of my family in the airline industry for decades going back to when the dc-3 was still doing the heavy lifting. The pilots in my immediate family have flown for PanAm, Eastern, Delta, United and Braniff and all have seen but never forecasted major life altering changes over the years. My grandfather was with Eastern at the peak in the 70s and also during the low of Frank Lorenzo era. He learned a very valuable and hard fought lesson watching scabs and management wipsaws ruin his beloved airline. After enduring the free fall the once stable Eastern Pilots faced while watching their executives make millions left a bad taste in his mouth. He made it a point for me to understand how things were, how they are and how fast they can change. Because of this mentorship by family and friends I felt like I had a grasp on the industries history and how managements predatory tactics with help from the RLA has shape the profession. At the time I felt I had a knowledgable solid foundation of what I could expect and most likely experience in my career based off the same info that is being preached to today’s new pilots. Turns out I was dead wrong and the perfect storm of bad events called “the lost decade” came to fruition. As heart breaking as it was I learned some great life lessons during this time I cherish.
As you so kindly pointed out I accepted the job thinking I knew what I was in for and how nothing would slow down this industry. Even though I tried to maintain reasonable expectations during that particular period of time, just like today, things were humming along and the outlook was rosy. I figured conservatively in that hiring environment I would be at a major 3-4 years after starting regional ioe. But when i was in my 6th year with the regional and still just an FO stuck on reserve with no end in sight (barely missing the dreaded furlough most others endured)I decided to re-evaluate life and make some hard decisions. Myself and many peers in the same boat made the tough choice of changing careers. Therefore voting with our feet.
I have been blessed during all this I now am fortunate to have an amazing career I love where daily I get to make positive and lasting changes in my community that leaves me fulfilled not just doing volunteer work to check a box. I am thankful my second profession provided me with many things flying never did including amazing pay, schedules, pensions, respect in the community, transferable skills and most importantly rock solid job stability. These reasons for me make going back to flying unrealistic at this stage. Fortunately I now have the time and disposable income to fly a few times a week to fulfill my aviation passion.
I did not intend to come across as preaching or in any way condescending. I merely was trying to provide some context about why some of his co workers might have issues with his videos and why these videos can rub some aviators the wrong way. This, just like it was when I was fresh out of college, is a great time to be a pilot. I truly hope this new generation of pilots will not experience the hardship that myself and those before me have experienced. But if history is any lesson pilots should hope for the best and plan on the worse. Careers can be similar to stocks you want to buy low and sale high. I am scared that rookies getting in right now maybe “buying” high and soon to be sold low.
The industry has changed course and been heading up but the top of a hill is usually followed with a steep and unexpected drop. Never forget that. Most of my college friends and colleagues are now on at the majors bidding senior FOs or junior captains. As seen on this thread there are still thousands of qualified experienced pilots on the sidelines waiting for the right changes to make flying viable and economically feasible career for them as daily more return to the cockpit. Myself, if I could make it work financially there are days I would love to go back to the airlines but alas I will wait till I can retire at 50 and then see where the cards fall. Luckily when I get the pilot bug my wife is quick to ground me and remind me how quickly aviation can go bad and how miserable it can be sometimes. More so with family and mortgages added in the mix.
I don’t mind his videos and see them as well produced and informative but I always try to listen to and understand both sides of an argument before forming any belief or opinion on the matter. Sorry about this long diatribe and tangents. In short Envoy and all pilots should always want there to be a shortage of prospects waiting in the pipe. It is one of the main forces that drives the current trend of salary and QOL improvements. Pilot shortages are great for pilots and bad for management. Low pay and bad contracts, the supply dwindles and flights cancel, pilots leave the field for more lucrative careers. Pool then dries up so management must now improve pilot salaries and benefits to attract qualified pilots. The smaller the pool of pilots the harder management must work to improve salaries and QOL to attract pilots away from their competitors. Conversely a large pool allows management to cut and wipesaw pilots against each other till they gut the elure of the profession so much guys leave, the pool shrinks, wash and repeat the cycles of the airline industry the last 70 years. In my experience as long as pilots keep showing up for class (a large pool) management sees no reason to improve wages. If tomorrow envoy stopped filling the training classes (small supply, large demand) it would make you head spin how fast management can find money to increase wages and QOL of their pilot group. One could make an argument that these videos don’t help increase Envoys hiring pool (Large supply)they may not hurt but the videos are definitely not helping the MEC and ALPA with the negotiation leverage that empty classes provide. At its worse and not my opinion one could argue, these videos can be construed as misleading management propaganda that paints a inaccurate or incomplete picture of the career compared to what many have experienced. IE serving the interest of management over labor. That coupled with with the whole society stigma many over 35 have against “social media influencers” clearly can and have created a unwarranted target that frustrated pilots to vent about.
I genuinely love this board and all the different types of personalities, prospective and experience that everyone brings. Fly safe!
I appreciate everyone’s input and opinion on here the debates help me have a robust understanding of different view points. I am in no way trying to appear salty i guess I did a bad job but was merely trying to help illustrate where some opinions on this matter may come from. I am only trying to show the possible thought process some may have. I honestly do not care one way or another. I genuinely love seeing people passionate about flying and excited about reaching their goals one reason I still instruct on occasion. I am merely trying to show you the negative reality that you could, but hopefully not, encounter in your long quest of this great career. This way some of you can do better maintaining an appropriate level of optimism then did. I learned the hard way that just wanting and expecting things to go a certain way, seldom ensures it does.
No high horse at all I am just providing a more realistic view of the industry. I absolutely did accept a job at that pay in the early 2000s. My airline management at that time was using bullet points identical to what Envoy recruiters, and these types of youtube videos are preaching to pilot prospects today. I honestly believe management has used the same recruiting propaganda for 40 years to get butts in seats and then recycle them from airline to airline. Back then I was promised fast movement, flow and upgrade in under 2 years with some new FOs holding lines right off IOE. None of which came to fruition in large part to outside forces that no one predicted or expected at the time. The era before the lost decade and the current climate are eerily similar in breadth prediction. In this industry things can and usually do change very rapid and unpredictability.
I was fortunate enough to have the majority of my family in the airline industry for decades going back to when the dc-3 was still doing the heavy lifting. The pilots in my immediate family have flown for PanAm, Eastern, Delta, United and Braniff and all have seen but never forecasted major life altering changes over the years. My grandfather was with Eastern at the peak in the 70s and also during the low of Frank Lorenzo era. He learned a very valuable and hard fought lesson watching scabs and management wipsaws ruin his beloved airline. After enduring the free fall the once stable Eastern Pilots faced while watching their executives make millions left a bad taste in his mouth. He made it a point for me to understand how things were, how they are and how fast they can change. Because of this mentorship by family and friends I felt like I had a grasp on the industries history and how managements predatory tactics with help from the RLA has shape the profession. At the time I felt I had a knowledgable solid foundation of what I could expect and most likely experience in my career based off the same info that is being preached to today’s new pilots. Turns out I was dead wrong and the perfect storm of bad events called “the lost decade” came to fruition. As heart breaking as it was I learned some great life lessons during this time I cherish.
As you so kindly pointed out I accepted the job thinking I knew what I was in for and how nothing would slow down this industry. Even though I tried to maintain reasonable expectations during that particular period of time, just like today, things were humming along and the outlook was rosy. I figured conservatively in that hiring environment I would be at a major 3-4 years after starting regional ioe. But when i was in my 6th year with the regional and still just an FO stuck on reserve with no end in sight (barely missing the dreaded furlough most others endured)I decided to re-evaluate life and make some hard decisions. Myself and many peers in the same boat made the tough choice of changing careers. Therefore voting with our feet.
I have been blessed during all this I now am fortunate to have an amazing career I love where daily I get to make positive and lasting changes in my community that leaves me fulfilled not just doing volunteer work to check a box. I am thankful my second profession provided me with many things flying never did including amazing pay, schedules, pensions, respect in the community, transferable skills and most importantly rock solid job stability. These reasons for me make going back to flying unrealistic at this stage. Fortunately I now have the time and disposable income to fly a few times a week to fulfill my aviation passion.
I did not intend to come across as preaching or in any way condescending. I merely was trying to provide some context about why some of his co workers might have issues with his videos and why these videos can rub some aviators the wrong way. This, just like it was when I was fresh out of college, is a great time to be a pilot. I truly hope this new generation of pilots will not experience the hardship that myself and those before me have experienced. But if history is any lesson pilots should hope for the best and plan on the worse. Careers can be similar to stocks you want to buy low and sale high. I am scared that rookies getting in right now maybe “buying” high and soon to be sold low.
The industry has changed course and been heading up but the top of a hill is usually followed with a steep and unexpected drop. Never forget that. Most of my college friends and colleagues are now on at the majors bidding senior FOs or junior captains. As seen on this thread there are still thousands of qualified experienced pilots on the sidelines waiting for the right changes to make flying viable and economically feasible career for them as daily more return to the cockpit. Myself, if I could make it work financially there are days I would love to go back to the airlines but alas I will wait till I can retire at 50 and then see where the cards fall. Luckily when I get the pilot bug my wife is quick to ground me and remind me how quickly aviation can go bad and how miserable it can be sometimes. More so with family and mortgages added in the mix.
I don’t mind his videos and see them as well produced and informative but I always try to listen to and understand both sides of an argument before forming any belief or opinion on the matter. Sorry about this long diatribe and tangents. In short Envoy and all pilots should always want there to be a shortage of prospects waiting in the pipe. It is one of the main forces that drives the current trend of salary and QOL improvements. Pilot shortages are great for pilots and bad for management. Low pay and bad contracts, the supply dwindles and flights cancel, pilots leave the field for more lucrative careers. Pool then dries up so management must now improve pilot salaries and benefits to attract qualified pilots. The smaller the pool of pilots the harder management must work to improve salaries and QOL to attract pilots away from their competitors. Conversely a large pool allows management to cut and wipesaw pilots against each other till they gut the elure of the profession so much guys leave, the pool shrinks, wash and repeat the cycles of the airline industry the last 70 years. In my experience as long as pilots keep showing up for class (a large pool) management sees no reason to improve wages. If tomorrow envoy stopped filling the training classes (small supply, large demand) it would make you head spin how fast management can find money to increase wages and QOL of their pilot group. One could make an argument that these videos don’t help increase Envoys hiring pool (Large supply)they may not hurt but the videos are definitely not helping the MEC and ALPA with the negotiation leverage that empty classes provide. At its worse and not my opinion one could argue, these videos can be construed as misleading management propaganda that paints a inaccurate or incomplete picture of the career compared to what many have experienced. IE serving the interest of management over labor. That coupled with with the whole society stigma many over 35 have against “social media influencers” clearly can and have created a unwarranted target that frustrated pilots to vent about.
I genuinely love this board and all the different types of personalities, prospective and experience that everyone brings. Fly safe!
06-20-2019, 11:22 PM
#380
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,533
Long but refreshing read. Thank you.
Cheers.
Cheers.
