envoy1

Envoy was my first 121 job a few years back. After 6 months I left for Endeavor as I felt that I was sold a lie regarding the 5.5 year flow which was advertised at the time. I believe the advertising has revised to 6 years today. However I am still in contact with 2 from my new hire class and they said the latest flows are from May 2007. Which is a little over 11 years. I believe the flow is a gimmick and can't figure out how they are able to sell it at 6 years when people flowing are from 11 years ago.

dbdevkc

And how is the progression from Endeavor? How many senior CA's are moving on to the majors or elsewhere and of them how long have they been at Endeavor? How long to go from new FO to CA?

highfarfast

It's a bit more complex than just saying the guys flowing today were hired 11 years ago so the guys hired today will flow in 11 years. Those that were hired at the end of 2016 and beginning of 2017 will probably actually see a 5.5 to 6 year flow. Those hired prior to that and after that will have longer flow unless you believe we'll see more attrition than what we've had so yeah, 5.5 to 6 years is possible but I don't understand how the company can say that to recruits today.

And before anyone comes on to say we will see attrition like never seen before because of the massive retirements at the majors, keep in mind that our pilot group, as a whole, has bought into flow and that has made us extremely lazy at pushing forth our careers. If you know your projected flow date but can't tell me the date you last updated your applications, you fit this description.

EmbaeDriver

At least we have a flow not a review of our app.

Machwon

Next year at this time the flow will be around 8 years (2011 doh). 2 years from now the flow will be at 6 years (2014 doh). Hopefully by then you’ll be at the airline of your choosing. If not then.... ooops?

envoy1

At least one of the responses here was well put together and thought out. The others are the same general hostile, pin back your ears type of responses that I received when I quit Envoy. In other words, calling me a dumb a** for leaving the "flow."

Attrition is moderate at Endeavor. With the new payrates, the senior guys are sticking around. Attrition is out of the mid to senior FO through junior CA ranks. Guys going to Delta, United, Jetblue, Spirit primarily. QOL blows Envoy away. Also, the treatment here is far better than Envoy. Management, CP, crew scheduling especially treat you like a pro. Envoy crew scheduling was the worst part of that job for me. THE most hostile, rude, nasty treatment I've ever had. It was a rude awakening for me at the time.

Back to my hiring at Envoy, I was completely naive and bought the flow that recruiting sold me completely. It works to a degree but as time goes on and the numbers drop 6 years is in no way possible no matter how you do the math. Plus the fact that management has not flowed occasionally, 3 months last year for example.

Like you guys say, thousands of retirements and you should have your choice of job. Even if the flow didn't take up so many slots, AA is my bottom choice because of the crappy work rules and toxic environment over there.

NoValueAviator

Idk about the rest of that, I think crew scheduling is getting better. There are some real dirtbags but they're on less essential desks (hotels), the daily schedulers seem ok on average, some are even bro-tier.

But I hear this. Having traveled a ton on Delta, AA, UAL since getting here, AA guys can be absolutely awful to deal with.

Whiskey4

So, since life is good and you’re happy at Endeavor, why the need to come over to the Envoy forum and kick people in the teeth? Is that how Endeavor pilots treat their industry peers?

Go outside, enjoy some time with your family, have a beer, whatever. There are about a million other things you can do with your new-found happiness rather than ***** on APC about the flow, which no longer applies to you and has no bearing on your life.

Flow has value for some people and not for others. Clearly, you are of the latter camp. Those flowing today would likely have flowed in six years if not for the five year pause do to Congress passing the age 65 rule.

Cyio

I am right in schedule to flow at 5.5 years on property.

mketch11

Why do you care? You are at Endeavor now. I was hired at Envoy in December 2016 with 947 hours in piston aircraft. They told me projected flow for me “not the current flow” was between 5.5 to 6 years. As it stands, according to ALPA projections, which ignore attrition, I am projected to flow in about 5.3 years. No, not everyone who was hired before or after is in the same boat, but please shut up with the “you will be at the major of your choice” without the flow. As an FO I’m flying 600-700 hours a year. By the time I flow I will have around 4000 hours total time at most. With maybe 1500 PIC turbine and 3000 121 time. What are you folks smoking saying that I will be at the major of my choice with that? Really? I think Endeavor guy is second guessing the fact that the lowly Envoy flow like myself will be at American way before either of us could have been anywhere close to competitive at a major otherwise. We will see who made the right choice soon enough. You made your choice now move on.