The hate is strong with this one. You do realize that Envoy flows three times what PSA does right? Or would you rather sit at PSA for a decade waiting to flow.

Not sure how you got the description "hate" from anything I said. PSA has a considerably smaller pilot group as well. New hires here are also looking at an 8+ year flow. Also Envoy flow is set to reduce once the PP's are gone.

Anything else we should discuss?

That the language was unclear in the ‘14 agreement that I, and not quite enough other pilots, voted against we can agree on. But, I knew what that language was going to yield during those gun-to-our-heads negotiations, and a grievance wasn’t going to change that (at least, I don’t believe and arbitrator would have agreed with our position). So, when people say they gave away the farm to increase the rate of flow for the protected pilots, I just don’t see it.

So the company increased flow for the PP's simply because they felt like it?

I can think of one WO that was just flowing guys that waited over a decade to flow and it isn't PSA.

Well, they did eff us in ‘14 and now their ‘14 hires are flowing as compared to our ‘10 hires. Maybe for a new hire their time to flow is higher than ours, but let’s not forget that we had pilots vote no, then bolt over to PSA to undercut their former coworkers, who are now flowing through to AA faster. That is some grade a garbage.

The increase served multiple purposes. The company was already used to 30/mo with the 824, so that number was a comfortable number. The increase served as a marketing tool for the company and recruitment, and by settling the grievance they saved an arbitration process. Also, that settlement was in conjunction with the agreements to make it easier to hire direct entry captains, which they also wanted (the agreement that also gave CA pay beginning at award date). So, we’re there items that both sides wanted? Yeah. Did we give away the farm? No...

Well exactly, the company needed to get DEC's in the door and to show the flow was working as intended, if not better to increase recruiting. The company wanted more planes and more flying and needed the bodies to do both, hence why it is of my opinion that we should have asked for the pay raises and protections for all the Envoy pilots.

Would we have gotten it all, most likely no but hell if we dont fight for things we would never know. Who would have been hurt by turning down that agreement? The PP's? Ok so a little more time at Envoy, I get that. However it would have had negligible effects on the rest of the pilot group initially with the chance to greatly improve things for years to come.

Just one pilots opinion. I am really not trying to dog anyone, just feel we missed the opportunity to get more.

I agree that the union needs to give us guidance and direction on what we as line pilots can and should be doing on a daily basis to improve our position here.

That has been the problem, there is NONE, other than "We can't do anything as long as the classes are filling up". When you talk to Senior Union reps, they will go as far as pointing out how they almost got shut down a few years back.

So, in short, they are scared, unable and unwilling to stand up for the pilot group as a whole. (protected group seems to be a different story)

So maybe the question needs to be how to replace the current Union Leadership ...