NoValueAviator

I wouldn’t call anything we do here “training.” Ground consists of CBTs where Microsoft Sam reads the airplanes manual to you, reading powerpoints out loud in class and practicing (not learning) things in the sim/procedure trainer. Maybe they train you a little if you’re weak on stuff? I would say it compared unfavorably to most of my part 61 training, but the checking events were also much easier than my part 61 rides.

I have never struggled with aviation related training but showing up to the procedure trainer and having only memorized the flows as they are presented in the manual was embarrassing. Totally inadequate. Learned to run the jet from YouTube.

Cyio

While I feel most get through the program here it certainly isn’t the best around. I think if the general public could sit in on our program, they would be nervous. We definitely have a “learn it on the line” mentality.

Again most get through and we have a great safety record so it must work, I just wouldn’t call it hard core training.

Concorde001

Wow, that's crazy!
When you say "most" get through, how many don't? Based on what is being said about how poor the training is, then I guess the learning happens during IOE which lasts probably way longer than the min 25-30 hours?

EnyFlyr

A buddy of mine was done with his 30 hours of IOE, since he wasn't ready at that point he failed IOE. He did get additional time for it but had to go back within 6 months to do another MV and LOE in the sim.

pitchattitude

From my three long term training events at Envoy, in my classes, I know of two that did not make it through the type ride and one that got EXTENSIVE additional time in IOE before being washed out. One that didn’t make it through the type ride was attitude. He expected everything to be spoon fed.

I also know of several that got additional time. At least one quite a bit. But he was working hard to stay with the program. And he made it through. Your attitude and work ethic is important.

One thing I will say, and I have said it quite a few time here.

Depending on how you were hired, you may or may not have had a tech interview and most didn’t do any kind of flight eval. Make sure you are thoroughly IFR proficient. The training program wasn’t designed to get people up to speed. You have to be at that point when you start. Not saying you need to understand kets and FMS systems, but you need to be able to fly an IFR flight with out help. And if you haven’t used Jepp charts, you need to do some self study there as well.

Cyio

Hard numbers are hard to quantify in this case, but I would say 15-30% don't get through on their first try. In terms of IOE, well you get 25 hours as a new hire and 50 as a new captain, which if you do the qualified upgrade program, is plenty of time. In reality it should be reversed, 50 hours for new hires and 25 for the qualified upgrades.

Anyway, not to get off track, as pitch mentioned above, I have seen Envoy go above and beyond in terms of getting people through who have a strong, positive attitude. If you need more time, tell someone, show that you are working hard, studying hard and putting in the time. If you do that, you will get through.

Its not a spoon fed course, you need to be on your game and work hard. The "firehose" analogy they have used here for years is completely true.

ninerdriver

Wait... so he failed IOE, then was given more time and passed IOE, but the company thought another LOE was a good idea within 6 months after he went on the line? Instead of like, I dunno, right away?

dera

No. He was placed on special tracking, as per our AQP LOA. Pretty sure every AQP program around has ST for IOE failures.
It's called R6, and it's standard across all AQP programs.

EnyFlyr

Yeah it was weird, he flew the line for a while before getting back into the sim.. then went back again for recurrent

dera

It was weird that the company did exactly what they were required to do?
Not sure if I follow you.