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Old 01-14-2020, 05:15 AM   #1  
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Exclamation Coming to Envoy: 11 Things You Need to Know

  1. Flow is projected between 9-10 years for new hires, will likely be just over 7 years.
    American Airlines is hiring 1,000+ per year for the foreseeable future. If you come here today, best case scenario is that you're going to have 7,000-8,000 young new hires ahead of you. If you actually do flow to American (note: flow is not a guarantee), prepare to have a underwhelming career compared to your peers that joined Eaglevoy in 2015-2016. The odds of a sub-seven year flow are increasingly low due to the number of lazy captains waiting in line for their flow number and aren't aggressively pursuing the incredible opportunities at the majors and LCCs.
  2. You probably won't get the ERJ-175 as a new hire (unless you're a cadet).
    For those of you with SJS and want to be a First Officer on the 175 in Dallas, odds are you'll only ever be able to hold it as a captain when you upgrade. However, do you want to be on reserve for well over a year as a CA in DFW? That's reality.
  3. I 'Heart' New York: Expect to be LGA Based
    As a new hire on the ERJ-145, you'll likely go there. As a junior captain on the ERJ-145, if you're holding DFW or ORD, be prepared to be displaced to LGA. Fortunately Envoy has commuter hotels and a letter of agreement that softens the gut punch of New York for the short term, but it's another reality of being here.
  4. LAX is coming.*
    I lied, it's not. This rumor has been at Envoy since LAX was closed down years ago. While technically anything is possible in the future, what appears much more likely is that SkyWest is going to take over AA flying out west and we're going to increase our flying in Chicago and less so Dallas, especially if our 175s ever come back to us from Compass.
  5. Reserve rules are not that great relative to the rest of the industry.
    See any of the forum posts and last years 'promise' to keep working on improving reserve. Nothing has happened. Empty promises.
  6. Employee benefits are mostly garbage.
    Sub-par health insurance, anemic 401(k) match, and so forth. The travel benefits are identical to mAAinline's, which if you can afford to travel might be of value to some people.
  7. American Airlines Group is in serious financial trouble.
    After the longest economic expansion in U.S. history, we're likely overdue for an economic correction in the form of a recession at best. If you're not familiar with AAG's financial woes, just do some searching on ye olde Google. NK and F9 are doing exceedingly well right now and their strategy is going after AA in many of their hubs. AA isn't going to close its doors tomorrow, but since your future is tied to the success of AAG here, I'd be wary of contract improvements, flow through agreements, and so forth. Another bankruptcy is just around the corner.
  8. Schedules are incredibly inefficient here [to include the other AA WOs].
    Weirdly enough, AA's contract carriers get first dibs on pairings and schedules before their wholly owneds when flying is divy'd out each month. Combine that with the pure lack of work rules (i.e. no min. day pay, trip or duty rigs, etc.), there are a lot of 72 credit lines that block 70-72 hours with 12-14 days off. If your goal is to accumulate flight time rapidly and move on to a major in order to 'disregard females, acquire currency,' there are better options out there.
  9. Forced upgrades at 950 hours of qualifying 121 time.
    Prepare to be displaced to captain as soon as you hit 950 hours and a vacancy is published. While 98.5% of everyone's goal is to upgrade to get extra money and the TPIC time to adorn your resume with, the fact that the only control you have over timing your resume is to bid senior reserve. If you'd like to time upgrade due to wanting more experience as an FO, for major life events, you're at the whims of captain staffing at Envoy. With major airline being what it is now and for the foreseeable future, displacements will likely regularly continue for years to come.
  10. Training is 'okay' at best... if that matters to you.
    Friends that have flowed to AA, left for United, Delta, JetBlue or came here from ExpressJet have said how underwhelming Envoy's training program is. The training is what you make of it and you'll have to be very proactive in teaching yourself, but the training at Envoy is underwhelming. If you want a solid 121 foundation, Envoy is likely not the best place to start your airline career.
  11. Go where you can get your hours ASAP if you want a mainline gig.
    This year, 2020, is the year of opportunity. The trend is likely to continue for at least a few more years, so if you're starting today, get in with your hours and get out ASAP while the times are good. Just look at the projected hiring numbers being put out by the various majors:

    American Airlines = 1,394 pilots (~1,000 street, non-flow hires)
    United Airlines = ~1,300 pilots (avg. per year based on 4,000 new hires by 2022)
    Delta "Air Lines" = 1,300 pilots
    Southwest Airlines = 500+ pilots (likely depends on the MAX coming back)
    JetBlue Airways = 500+ pilots
    Spirit Airlines = 500+ pilots
    Alaska Airlines = 400+ pilots
    Frontier Airlines = 250+ pilots
    Hawaiian Airlines = 150+ pilots
    Allegiant Airlines = 150+ years
    FedEx = 700+ pilots
    UPS = 350+ pilots
    Breeze Airways ("Moxy") = 200+ pilots
    (accepting applications here)

    ... and that's not accounting for ACMIs, fractionals, corporate, etc. Tons of opportunity and movement out there. Envoy may not be the best option for getting your hours quickly depending on where you plan to be domiciled.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:35 AM   #2  
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Can we just take a moment to appreciate that there are over 7k pilot vacancies at mainline carriers this year? If just 5% of all those vacancy hires come from Envoy alone, that's 350 pilots here with class dates at a major. If that's not motivating to get your apps out, then I don't know what is.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:42 AM   #3  
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Originally Posted by Voski View Post
Can we just take a moment to appreciate that there are over 7k pilot vacancies at mainline carriers this year? If just 5% of all those vacancy hires come from Envoy alone, that's 350 pilots here with class dates at a major. If that's not motivating to get your apps out, then I don't know what is.
MGMT is going to eff with the flow if that's the case. They're not going to flow themselves out of business.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:48 AM   #4  
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Originally Posted by UnprotectdPilot View Post
  1. Flow is projected between 9-10 years for new hires, will likely be just over 7 years.
    American Airlines is hiring 1,000+ per year for the foreseeable future. If you come here today, best case scenario is that you're going to have 7,000-8,000 young new hires ahead of you. If you actually do flow to American (note: flow is not a guarantee), prepare to have a underwhelming career compared to your peers that joined Eaglevoy in 2015-2016. The odds of a sub-seven year flow are increasingly low due to the number of lazy captains waiting in line for their flow number and aren't aggressively pursuing the incredible opportunities at the majors and LCCs.
  2. You probably won't get the ERJ-175 as a new hire (unless you're a cadet).
    For those of you with SJS and want to be a First Officer on the 175 in Dallas, odds are you'll only ever be able to hold it as a captain when you upgrade. However, do you want to be on reserve for well over a year as a CA in DFW? That's reality.
  3. I 'Heart' New York: Expect to be LGA Based
    As a new hire on the ERJ-145, you'll likely go there. As a junior captain on the ERJ-145, if you're holding DFW or ORD, be prepared to be displaced to LGA. Fortunately Envoy has commuter hotels and a letter of agreement that softens the gut punch of New York for the short term, but it's another reality of being here.
  4. LAX is coming.*
    I lied, it's not. This rumor has been at Envoy since LAX was closed down years ago. While technically anything is possible in the future, what appears much more likely is that SkyWest is going to take over AA flying out west and we're going to increase our flying in Chicago and less so Dallas, especially if our 175s ever come back to us from Compass.
  5. Reserve rules are not that great relative to the rest of the industry.
    See any of the forum posts and last years 'promise' to keep working on improving reserve. Nothing has happened. Empty promises.
  6. Employee benefits are mostly garbage.
    Sub-par health insurance, anemic 401(k) match, and so forth. The travel benefits are identical to mAAinline's, which if you can afford to travel might be of value to some people.
  7. American Airlines Group is in serious financial trouble.
    After the longest economic expansion in U.S. history, we're likely overdue for an economic correction in the form of a recession at best. If you're not familiar with AAG's financial woes, just do some searching on ye olde Google. NK and F9 are doing exceedingly well right now and their strategy is going after AA in many of their hubs. AA isn't going to close its doors tomorrow, but since your future is tied to the success of AAG here, I'd be wary of contract improvements, flow through agreements, and so forth. Another bankruptcy is just around the corner.
  8. Schedules are incredibly inefficient here [to include the other AA WOs].
    Weirdly enough, AA's contract carriers get first dibs on pairings and schedules before their wholly owneds when flying is divy'd out each month. Combine that with the pure lack of work rules (i.e. no min. day pay, trip or duty rigs, etc.), there are a lot of 72 credit lines that block 70-72 hours with 12-14 days off. If your goal is to accumulate flight time rapidly and move on to a major in order to 'disregard females, acquire currency,' there are better options out there.
  9. Forced upgrades at 950 hours of qualifying 121 time.
    Prepare to be displaced to captain as soon as you hit 950 hours and a vacancy is published. While 98.5% of everyone's goal is to upgrade to get extra money and the TPIC time to adorn your resume with, the fact that the only control you have over timing your resume is to bid senior reserve. If you'd like to time upgrade due to wanting more experience as an FO, for major life events, you're at the whims of captain staffing at Envoy. With major airline being what it is now and for the foreseeable future, displacements will likely regularly continue for years to come.
  10. Training is 'okay' at best... if that matters to you.
    Friends that have flowed to AA, left for United, Delta, JetBlue or came here from ExpressJet have said how underwhelming Envoy's training program is. The training is what you make of it and you'll have to be very proactive in teaching yourself, but the training at Envoy is underwhelming. If you want a solid 121 foundation, Envoy is likely not the best place to start your airline career.
  11. Go where you can get your hours ASAP if you want a mainline gig.
    This year, 2020, is the year of opportunity. The trend is likely to continue for at least a few more years, so if you're starting today, get in with your hours and get out ASAP while the times are good. Just look at the projected hiring numbers being put out by the various majors:

    American Airlines = 1,394 pilots (~1,000 street, non-flow hires)
    United Airlines = ~1,300 pilots (avg. per year based on 4,000 new hires by 2022)
    Delta "Air Lines" = 1,300 pilots
    Southwest Airlines = 500+ pilots (likely depends on the MAX coming back)
    JetBlue Airways = 500+ pilots
    Spirit Airlines = 500+ pilots
    Alaska Airlines = 400+ pilots
    Frontier Airlines = 250+ pilots
    Hawaiian Airlines = 150+ pilots
    Allegiant Airlines = 150+ years
    FedEx = 700+ pilots
    UPS = 350+ pilots
    Breeze Airways ("Moxy") = 200+ pilots
    (accepting applications here)

    ... and that's not accounting for ACMIs, fractionals, corporate, etc. Tons of opportunity and movement out there. Envoy may not be the best option for getting your hours quickly depending on where you plan to be domiciled.
Bulls Eye!!! Thank you... The worst mistake of my life was coming to The Envoy and dealing constantly with the hostile management daily and the poor quality of life. The nightmare started after receiving the bait & scam bonus check when the non pilot Indoctrination Instructor started reading out the FM1 loud with no clue to what he was teaching.
Dont make the same mistake, I came here from a sinking airline and this place has been an absolute nightmare.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:54 AM   #5  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnprotectdPilot View Post
  1. Flow is projected between 9-10 years for new hires, will likely be just over 7 years.
    American Airlines is hiring 1,000+ per year for the foreseeable future. If you come here today, best case scenario is that you're going to have 7,000-8,000 young new hires ahead of you. If you actually do flow to American (note: flow is not a guarantee), prepare to have a underwhelming career compared to your peers that joined Eaglevoy in 2015-2016. The odds of a sub-seven year flow are increasingly low due to the number of lazy captains waiting in line for their flow number and aren't aggressively pursuing the incredible opportunities at the majors and LCCs.
  2. You probably won't get the ERJ-175 as a new hire (unless you're a cadet).
    For those of you with SJS and want to be a First Officer on the 175 in Dallas, odds are you'll only ever be able to hold it as a captain when you upgrade. However, do you want to be on reserve for well over a year as a CA in DFW? That's reality.
  3. I 'Heart' New York: Expect to be LGA Based
    As a new hire on the ERJ-145, you'll likely go there. As a junior captain on the ERJ-145, if you're holding DFW or ORD, be prepared to be displaced to LGA. Fortunately Envoy has commuter hotels and a letter of agreement that softens the gut punch of New York for the short term, but it's another reality of being here.
  4. LAX is coming.*
    I lied, it's not. This rumor has been at Envoy since LAX was closed down years ago. While technically anything is possible in the future, what appears much more likely is that SkyWest is going to take over AA flying out west and we're going to increase our flying in Chicago and less so Dallas, especially if our 175s ever come back to us from Compass.
  5. Reserve rules are not that great relative to the rest of the industry.
    See any of the forum posts and last years 'promise' to keep working on improving reserve. Nothing has happened. Empty promises.
  6. Employee benefits are mostly garbage.
    Sub-par health insurance, anemic 401(k) match, and so forth. The travel benefits are identical to mAAinline's, which if you can afford to travel might be of value to some people.
  7. American Airlines Group is in serious financial trouble.
    After the longest economic expansion in U.S. history, we're likely overdue for an economic correction in the form of a recession at best. If you're not familiar with AAG's financial woes, just do some searching on ye olde Google. NK and F9 are doing exceedingly well right now and their strategy is going after AA in many of their hubs. AA isn't going to close its doors tomorrow, but since your future is tied to the success of AAG here, I'd be wary of contract improvements, flow through agreements, and so forth. Another bankruptcy is just around the corner.
  8. Schedules are incredibly inefficient here [to include the other AA WOs].
    Weirdly enough, AA's contract carriers get first dibs on pairings and schedules before their wholly owneds when flying is divy'd out each month. Combine that with the pure lack of work rules (i.e. no min. day pay, trip or duty rigs, etc.), there are a lot of 72 credit lines that block 70-72 hours with 12-14 days off. If your goal is to accumulate flight time rapidly and move on to a major in order to 'disregard females, acquire currency,' there are better options out there.
  9. Forced upgrades at 950 hours of qualifying 121 time.
    Prepare to be displaced to captain as soon as you hit 950 hours and a vacancy is published. While 98.5% of everyone's goal is to upgrade to get extra money and the TPIC time to adorn your resume with, the fact that the only control you have over timing your resume is to bid senior reserve. If you'd like to time upgrade due to wanting more experience as an FO, for major life events, you're at the whims of captain staffing at Envoy. With major airline being what it is now and for the foreseeable future, displacements will likely regularly continue for years to come.
  10. Training is 'okay' at best... if that matters to you.
    Friends that have flowed to AA, left for United, Delta, JetBlue or came here from ExpressJet have said how underwhelming Envoy's training program is. The training is what you make of it and you'll have to be very proactive in teaching yourself, but the training at Envoy is underwhelming. If you want a solid 121 foundation, Envoy is likely not the best place to start your airline career.
  11. Go where you can get your hours ASAP if you want a mainline gig.
    This year, 2020, is the year of opportunity. The trend is likely to continue for at least a few more years, so if you're starting today, get in with your hours and get out ASAP while the times are good. Just look at the projected hiring numbers being put out by the various majors:

    American Airlines = 1,394 pilots (~1,000 street, non-flow hires)
    United Airlines = ~1,300 pilots (avg. per year based on 4,000 new hires by 2022)
    Delta "Air Lines" = 1,300 pilots
    Southwest Airlines = 500+ pilots (likely depends on the MAX coming back)
    JetBlue Airways = 500+ pilots
    Spirit Airlines = 500+ pilots
    Alaska Airlines = 400+ pilots
    Frontier Airlines = 250+ pilots
    Hawaiian Airlines = 150+ pilots
    Allegiant Airlines = 150+ years
    FedEx = 700+ pilots
    UPS = 350+ pilots
    Breeze Airways ("Moxy") = 200+ pilots
    (accepting applications here)

    ... and that's not accounting for ACMIs, fractionals, corporate, etc. Tons of opportunity and movement out there. Envoy may not be the best option for getting your hours quickly depending on where you plan to be domiciled.

The large majority of what you posted here is blatantly false. It's your own opinion only and you are sharing it as if it is indeed fact. Flow is NOT going to be 9 or 10 years. That's way off base. Read more like 6. And I would seriously expect that to drop in the coming year as retirements ramp up. American needs pilots and Envoy has a steady supply. All things point toward it making complete sense that the flow increases dropping the time below 5 years.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:59 AM   #6  
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Originally Posted by THKooj View Post
The large majority of what you posted here is blatantly false. It's your own opinion only and you are sharing it as if it is indeed fact. Flow is NOT going to be 9 or 10 years. That's way off base. Read more like 6. And I would seriously expect that to drop in the coming year as retirements ramp up. American needs pilots and Envoy has a steady supply. All things point toward it making complete sense that the flow increases dropping the time below 5 years.
It is the absolute truth and nothing else. I am certain everyone sane at The Envoy concurs.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:10 AM   #7  
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It is the absolute truth and nothing else. I am certain everyone sane at The Envoy concurs.
Again, this is your opinion only. I was hired during the lost decade and flowed over to AA over a year ago. My career has been nothing short of spectacular and that was BEFORE the instant upgrade/5 year flow.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:11 AM   #8  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THKooj View Post
The large majority of what you posted here is blatantly false. It's your own opinion only and you are sharing it as if it is indeed fact. Flow is NOT going to be 9 or 10 years. That's way off base. Read more like 6. And I would seriously expect that to drop in the coming year as retirements ramp up. American needs pilots and Envoy has a steady supply. All things point toward it making complete sense that the flow increases dropping the time below 5 years.
A 6 year flow right now is going to put you far back in the AA hiring surge. It's hardly a reason to go to Envoy.
you would be better served picking a regional with a better QOL if you have a degree and try all the majors. Why chain yourself to a WO with lousy QOL for a distant flow?
Maybe if you don't have college, yes. If you have a decent resume, go elsewhere.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:18 AM   #9  
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Originally Posted by THKooj View Post
Again, this is your opinion only. I was hired during the lost decade and flowed over to AA over a year ago. My career has been nothing short of spectacular and that was BEFORE the instant upgrade/5 year flow.
A couple posts up you stated 6 year flow. Now you're mentioning a 5 year flow. Which is it? Can you please explain how the company will be able to handle an increased flow?

We all know you didn't flow, else why would you still be here championing the cause? If you can show how the company can realistically flow 35+ pilots a month in the coming year or so, I will gladly admit my error. However I dont think you can so you come on here and throw over the top cheerleading posts up.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:22 AM   #10  
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Originally Posted by THKooj View Post
The large majority of what you posted here is blatantly false. It's your own opinion only and you are sharing it as if it is indeed fact. Flow is NOT going to be 9 or 10 years. That's way off base. Read more like 6. And I would seriously expect that to drop in the coming year as retirements ramp up. American needs pilots and Envoy has a steady supply. All things point toward it making complete sense that the flow increases dropping the time below 5 years.
I agree the flow won't be 9 years, but it won't be 5 either. Again if you can show the math and the business model needed to do it, I would happily eat crow. I will even say that the general atmosphere here has improved as of late, but I think that has way more to do with CP changes in ORD and the new contract.

I still attest that if you have more than a year left before you flow, you should be looking to get out. As mentioned, there are going to be 7000+ pilots hired this year alone and every single one of them will have seniority on you at the company they get hired at.
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