Coming to Envoy: 11 Things You Need to Know

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01-14-2020, 10:38 AM

#21

dera

In a land of unicorns

Joined APC: Apr 2014

Position: Whale FO

Posts: 6,467

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyio

Depending on your age and other factors, there are opportunities for all, which I think is the underlying point to all of these threads, with Spirit getting most of the attention. If you are 40+ and have a couple years to flow, I think Spirit and the like will make you more in the long run. You will get paid better faster and most importantly upgrade faster. Its all speculation and educated guessing though.

AA did throw quite the curveball with the 2.5 year upgrade on their latest vacancy.
This year will be quite the year. With the legacies/LCCs targeting to hire 7000+ pilots, I think we will know a lot more about how the regionals will adapt to this new normal before the year is over. Status quo won't be good enough.

01-14-2020, 10:41 AM

#22

Cyio

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Mar 2017

Posts: 3,656

Quote:

Originally Posted by dera

Was this an isolated incident though due to enough people not wanting to upgrade for one reason or the other and some wiley cat throwing upgrade preferences in their file lol.?

If it is come down for most people to that, wow, huge news, but I feel like that was a one off. Hope I am wrong.

01-14-2020, 02:28 PM

#23

pitchattitude

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Joined APC: Jan 2017

Posts: 2,510

Quote:

Originally Posted by THKooj

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did flow. As a 2007 hire, I flowed in the summer of 2018. Why do I still come here and champion the cause, as you say? Because I 100% believe in it as I mentioned. I have had a spectacular career and that was being hired in the lost decade. Besides, we are all the same. It would be hypocritical of me to state that you are an AA pilot from day one and then abandon my post after flowing.

I would qualify the flow today at 6 or less with that number dropping in the near future due to the sheer number of retirements at AA. The training department has the ability to ramp up further if given marching orders to do so. The new hires aren't a problem as there is a line out the door on Regent stretching to downtown Dallas with pipeline hopefuls vying for their chance to get in and get that American Airlines career job. So there you go. A very bright future ahead for Envoy for sure.

I seriously doubt the training department can push much more through. They already delayed the most recent vacancy due to the number already awarded and being paid as captain and not trained yet. RW last said something like 636 new hires and 450 upgrades with a fleet count of nine more planes. There are contradictory things going on here. First, flow is 20/month. Hiring more and having more on property will only SLIGHTLY increase flow. I will give you that. A SLIGHT increase is an increase, but the current formula beyond the 10/11 pilots will likely only yield one or two more per month by years end. But 636 in 2020 is 53 a month. WAY more than the 20-22 a month flowing. The math will never work. Even the outside attrition will have to winnow things down a LONG way to decrease the flow time.

01-15-2020, 12:21 AM

#24

Tyrion

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Joined APC: Sep 2018

Position: Flying with my right hand again

Posts: 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyio

It is an isolated incident. That guy is 2.5 years from being the bottom guy on any other CA status. He's making good money, but he'll be working every weekend and holiday out of New York for the next few years.

It's not really huge news. Delta had junior CAs less than a year on property for a while flying the Mad Dog out of NY. 6000+ pilots chose to be FO's on other equipment rather than be on that status.

01-15-2020, 04:19 AM

#25

Cyio

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Joined APC: Mar 2017

Posts: 3,656

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrion

This is what I assumed was happening, so really not a valid argument as of now. I guess if this continues throughout the year it may be noteworthy.

01-15-2020, 11:20 AM

#26

Pedro4President

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Joined APC: May 2016

Posts: 1,609

Quote:

Originally Posted by THKooj

The large majority of what you posted here is blatantly false. It's your own opinion only and you are sharing it as if it is indeed fact. Flow is NOT going to be 9 or 10 years. That's way off base. Read more like 6. And I would seriously expect that to drop in the coming year as retirements ramp up. American needs pilots and Envoy has a steady supply. All things point toward it making complete sense that the flow increases dropping the time below 5 years.

He makes 11 points about Envoy and you pick flow to try to discredit him. When we talk about flow there are no facts. None zip zilch. It’s all best guess. Doesn’t mean he is right or wrong but in all honesty it’s just opinions we are talking about. Everything else he said was pretty factual. There were a few things that may be debatable but definitely everything thing he said apart from flow is either fact or the most likely scenario to play out for a new hire.

If we’re talking about flow though I don’t think the OP can get away with saying the flow is likely going to be 7 years and post how many pilots will get hired in 2020. Flow will drop to sub 6 years by July/August and stay there. IMO! I don’t see it coming back up above 6 years with that amount of hiring. But Envoy pilots can be lazy and not get their apps out.

01-15-2020, 12:13 PM

#27

highfarfast

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Joined APC: Nov 2016

Posts: 2,465

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedro4President

But Envoy pilots can be lazy and not get their apps out.

Don't underestimate that.

THAT and the fact there are a disproportionate amount of pilots here that see the flow as their only way to a major.

01-15-2020, 01:18 PM

#28

Tyrion

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Sep 2018

Position: Flying with my right hand again

Posts: 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by highfarfast

Don't underestimate that.

THAT and the fact there are a disproportionate amount of pilots here that see the flow as their only way to a major.

Adding to this, there are a lot of pilots who did not fly much and delayed upgrade. After upgrading,they are taking a while to get their 1000 hr PIC box checked. Some by choice, some by the Envoy schedule structure. By the time they become competitive for the other top destinations, they can see the light at the end of the flow tunnel. At that point, why bother going the extra mile to do a chief pilot meet and greet or paying for interview coaching and attending a job fair?