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Old 01-14-2020, 07:25 AM   #11  
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Originally Posted by THKooj View Post
The large majority of what you posted here is blatantly false. It's your own opinion only and you are sharing it as if it is indeed fact. Flow is NOT going to be 9 or 10 years. That's way off base. Read more like 6. And I would seriously expect that to drop in the coming year as retirements ramp up. American needs pilots and Envoy has a steady supply. All things point toward it making complete sense that the flow increases dropping the time below 5 years.
How is what was posted false? LOL

How about you go line by line and debunk what was posted? Also, did he/she not say the flow is likely to be closer to 7 years? Reading for comprehension, brah.

My only critique is of point 4. Any conjecture on any LAX happening or not happening is just speculation. Otherwise my experience matches this post one hundred puh-cent.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:25 AM   #12  
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A couple posts up you stated 6 year flow. Now you're mentioning a 5 year flow. Which is it? Can you please explain how the company will be able to handle an increased flow?

We all know you didn't flow, else why would you still be here championing the cause? If you can show how the company can realistically flow 35+ pilots a month in the coming year or so, I will gladly admit my error. However I dont think you can so you come on here and throw over the top cheerleading posts up.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I did flow. As a 2007 hire, I flowed in the summer of 2018. Why do I still come here and champion the cause, as you say? Because I 100% believe in it as I mentioned. I have had a spectacular career and that was being hired in the lost decade. Besides, we are all the same. It would be hypocritical of me to state that you are an AA pilot from day one and then abandon my post after flowing.

I would qualify the flow today at 6 or less with that number dropping in the near future due to the sheer number of retirements at AA. The training department has the ability to ramp up further if given marching orders to do so. The new hires aren't a problem as there is a line out the door on Regent stretching to downtown Dallas with pipeline hopefuls vying for their chance to get in and get that American Airlines career job. So there you go. A very bright future ahead for Envoy for sure.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:34 AM   #13  
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Yes, as a matter of fact, I did flow. As a 2007 hire, I flowed in the summer of 2018. Why do I still come here and champion the cause, as you say? Because I 100% believe in it as I mentioned. I have had a spectacular career and that was being hired in the lost decade. Besides, we are all the same. It would be hypocritical of me to state that you are an AA pilot from day one and then abandon my post after flowing.

I would qualify the flow today at 6 or less with that number dropping in the near future due to the sheer number of retirements at AA. The training department has the ability to ramp up further if given marching orders to do so. The new hires aren't a problem as there is a line out the door on Regent stretching to downtown Dallas with pipeline hopefuls vying for their chance to get in and get that American Airlines career job. So there you go. A very bright future ahead for Envoy for sure.
Disregard zealots and Nihilsts. Agnosticism is where it's at. I would classify you as a true believer.

The OP has some very healthy skepticism toward AAG and criticism of Envoy as a company. There's no perfect regional carrier and they are all stepping stones to greener pastures, but the lack of truth-in-advertising with The Voy makes OP's post golden. I wish I had a transparent look at the company before coming here. Would I have gone elsewhere? Maybe, maybe not. I came here because the flow ensures my QOL goes up each month, but I sure as hell do not intend to flow to AA. Frankly, the LCCs look more appealing than AA in 2020 and beyond.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:35 AM   #14  
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  1. Flow is projected between 9-10 years for new hires, will likely be just over 7 years.
    American Airlines is hiring 1,000+ per year for the foreseeable future. If you come here today, best case scenario is that you're going to have 7,000-8,000 young new hires ahead of you. If you actually do flow to American (note: flow is not a guarantee), prepare to have a underwhelming career compared to your peers that joined Eaglevoy in 2015-2016. The odds of a sub-seven year flow are increasingly low due to the number of lazy captains waiting in line for their flow number and aren't aggressively pursuing the incredible opportunities at the majors and LCCs.
    I would tend to put this at the seven year mark as well, for an average. Sure this will be outliers but this should be a good worst case number for people to think about. Its a nice bonus to have in your pocket, but I would be actively trying to get out the entirety of my career with Envoy, especially if you have the qualifications.
  2. You probably won't get the ERJ-175 as a new hire (unless you're a cadet).
    For those of you with SJS and want to be a First Officer on the 175 in Dallas, odds are you'll only ever be able to hold it as a captain when you upgrade. However, do you want to be on reserve for well over a year as a CA in DFW? That's reality.
    I would tend to agree here as well but as always, you do occasionally get an all 175 class. The problem with this will be you won't have the seniority to hold a line when you upgrade. If memory serves, ORD 175 CA just got displaced at 1500 and we are looking at DFW 175 CA being at threes years on property for a line. Expect to transition to the 145.
  3. I 'Heart' New York: Expect to be LGA Based
    As a new hire on the ERJ-145, you'll likely go there. As a junior captain on the ERJ-145, if you're holding DFW or ORD, be prepared to be displaced to LGA. Fortunately Envoy has commuter hotels and a letter of agreement that softens the gut punch of New York for the short term, but it's another reality of being here.
    I didn't have to do this, so I cant speak much to it other than without fail, every single person I know hated this process.
  4. LAX is coming.*
    I lied, it's not. This rumor has been at Envoy since LAX was closed down years ago. While technically anything is possible in the future, what appears much more likely is that SkyWest is going to take over AA flying out west and we're going to increase our flying in Chicago and less so Dallas, especially if our 175s ever come back to us from Compass.
    Yeap, dont think we will get LAX. Makes more sense for Skywest to get it. This is coming from someone that would greatly benefit from a west coast base. We should get the planes though.
  5. Reserve rules are not that great relative to the rest of the industry.
    See any of the forum posts and last years 'promise' to keep working on improving reserve. Nothing has happened. Empty promises.
    Agreed, although the company has said that "soon" we may get improvements. Time will tell but they are pretty draconian in the rules.
  6. Employee benefits are mostly garbage.
    Sub-par health insurance, anemic 401(k) match, and so forth. The travel benefits are identical to mAAinline's, which if you can afford to travel might be of value to some people.
    񹙋񹙋񹙋​If you opt for the top tier health, it is pretty decent as I have had no issue with it. I actually feel we are pretty average for the regional level on this one.
  7. American Airlines Group is in serious financial trouble.
    After the longest economic expansion in U.S. history, we're likely overdue for an economic correction in the form of a recession at best. If you're not familiar with AAG's financial woes, just do some searching on ye olde Google. NK and F9 are doing exceedingly well right now and their strategy is going after AA in many of their hubs. AA isn't going to close its doors tomorrow, but since your future is tied to the success of AAG here, I'd be wary of contract improvements, flow through agreements, and so forth. Another bankruptcy is just around the corner.
    Without a doubt my biggest concern with this entire things. AAG is not healthy and are carrying loads of debt, decreasing customer satisfaction and a new pilot contract in the works, which will only worsen the outlook. If we hit a recession, there will be concessions made by the pilots or another BK contract put in place.
  8. Schedules are incredibly inefficient here [to include the other AA WOs].
    Weirdly enough, AA's contract carriers get first dibs on pairings and schedules before their wholly owneds when flying is divy'd out each month. Combine that with the pure lack of work rules (i.e. no min. day pay, trip or duty rigs, etc.), there are a lot of 72 credit lines that block 70-72 hours with 12-14 days off. If your goal is to accumulate flight time rapidly and move on to a major in order to 'disregard females, acquire currency,' there are better options out there.
    񹙋񹙋񹙋​Agreed and I find it really crappy that our competition gets better picks then we do.
  9. Forced upgrades at 950 hours of qualifying 121 time.
    Prepare to be displaced to captain as soon as you hit 950 hours and a vacancy is published. While 98.5% of everyone's goal is to upgrade to get extra money and the TPIC time to adorn your resume with, the fact that the only control you have over timing your resume is to bid senior reserve. If you'd like to time upgrade due to wanting more experience as an FO, for major life events, you're at the whims of captain staffing at Envoy. With major airline being what it is now and for the foreseeable future, displacements will likely regularly continue for years to come.
    񹙋񹙋񹙋​Also true. Senior FO is the perfect spot to sit at and they won't let you do it for long. If this is your goal, kiss it goodbye as I dont see forced upgrades ending anytime soon.
  10. Training is 'okay' at best... if that matters to you.
    Friends that have flowed to AA, left for United, Delta, JetBlue or came here from ExpressJet have said how underwhelming Envoy's training program is. The training is what you make of it and you'll have to be very proactive in teaching yourself, but the training at Envoy is underwhelming. If you want a solid 121 foundation, Envoy is likely not the best place to start your airline career.
    It is certainly very "study on your own" type training. If you struggle with this or cant make a group to study with, you will struggle. The actual line pilots, should get lucky to have one as your trainer are amazing. If you get Mark in ground school, you will also learn a lot. Beyond that, hang on because the experience varies wildly from one to the other.
  11. Go where you can get your hours ASAP if you want a mainline gig.
    This year, 2020, is the year of opportunity. The trend is likely to continue for at least a few more years, so if you're starting today, get in with your hours and get out ASAP while the times are good. Just look at the projected hiring numbers being put out by the various majors:
    Again, agreed. Unless AA is your absolute only option, there are easier ways to get to the majors and will most likely be faster.
    American Airlines = 1,394 pilots (~1,000 street, non-flow hires)
    United Airlines = ~1,300 pilots (avg. per year based on 4,000 new hires by 2022)
    Delta "Air Lines" = 1,300 pilots
    Southwest Airlines = 500+ pilots (likely depends on the MAX coming back)
    JetBlue Airways = 500+ pilots
    Spirit Airlines = 500+ pilots
    Alaska Airlines = 400+ pilots
    Frontier Airlines = 250+ pilots
    Hawaiian Airlines = 150+ pilots
    Allegiant Airlines = 150+ years
    FedEx = 700+ pilots
    UPS = 350+ pilots
    Breeze Airways ("Moxy") = 200+ pilots
    (accepting applications here)

    ... and that's not accounting for ACMIs, fractionals, corporate, etc. Tons of opportunity and movement out there. Envoy may not be the best option for getting your hours quickly depending on where you plan to be domiciled.
Just wanted to add, I think Envoy has made huge improvements over the years I have been here, which is great. It doesn't mean they are great yet, but improving. If they could manage 30 a month flow numbers, fix the reserve rules and get those planes from Compass, I think they would be looking highly attractive for a larger pool of pilots.
My responses are underlined.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:41 AM   #15  
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Yes, as a matter of fact, I did flow. As a 2007 hire, I flowed in the summer of 2018. Why do I still come here and champion the cause, as you say? Because I 100% believe in it as I mentioned. I have had a spectacular career and that was being hired in the lost decade. Besides, we are all the same. It would be hypocritical of me to state that you are an AA pilot from day one and then abandon my post after flowing.

I would qualify the flow today at 6 or less with that number dropping in the near future due to the sheer number of retirements at AA. The training department has the ability to ramp up further if given marching orders to do so. The new hires aren't a problem as there is a line out the door on Regent stretching to downtown Dallas with pipeline hopefuls vying for their chance to get in and get that American Airlines career job. So there you go. A very bright future ahead for Envoy for sure.
Ok I will concede you work for AA, as I have no real way to refute that. People are not lined up down the street to get in and if they were, how would you know since you dont work here anymore? If you say you know people, well then how when Cujo says he still keeps in contact you lambast them for being sketchy contacts? How do we know your contacts are not sketchy? You cant bash people for the same things you are doing.
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:00 AM   #16  
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My responses are underlined.
Excellent post.



I also agree with your assessment --

Quote:
Just wanted to add, I think Envoy has made huge improvements over the years I have been here, which is great. It doesn't mean they are great yet, but improving. If they could manage 30 a month flow numbers, fix the reserve rules and get those planes from Compass, I think they would be looking highly attractive for a larger pool of pilots.
30 per month flow would likely result in a lot more people staying put until their dream airline calls (or just go to AA). I think, as it stands right now, anyone hired in the past three years is better served by jumping to anywhere to be considered upward career mobility where you could make a full career (e.g. JetBlue, Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant). Obviously your choices will narrow once you get closer to your flow date, but with 1,000 TPIC still being preferred by a lot of the majors, get your time and bounce. Hell, even with a few hundred hours of TPIC, guys are getting picked up at Delta. TPIC isn't everything on a resume.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:35 AM   #17  
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Originally Posted by THKooj View Post
Yes, as a matter of fact, I did flow. As a 2007 hire, I flowed in the summer of 2018. Why do I still come here and champion the cause, as you say? Because I 100% believe in it as I mentioned. I have had a spectacular career and that was being hired in the lost decade. Besides, we are all the same. It would be hypocritical of me to state that you are an AA pilot from day one and then abandon my post after flowing.

I would qualify the flow today at 6 or less with that number dropping in the near future due to the sheer number of retirements at AA. The training department has the ability to ramp up further if given marching orders to do so. The new hires aren't a problem as there is a line out the door on Regent stretching to downtown Dallas with pipeline hopefuls vying for their chance to get in and get that American Airlines career job. So there you go. A very bright future ahead for Envoy for sure.

Why were you unbanned? Constant personal attacks and blatant lies.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:56 AM   #18  
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Hell, even with a few hundred hours of TPIC, guys are getting picked up at Delta. TPIC isn't everything on a resume.
A couple of outliers with family connections or unique resumes do not constitute a trend. Outside of the usual USAF/USN fighter or heavy profile, civilian hires at the big three still fit the usual profile of 4000-5000 TT, 1000-1500+ TPIC, volunteer and/or union work, and maybe a check airman letter.

Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant do not equal the same career expectations or opportunities that exist at the legacies. Quick cash, etc., does not constitute playing the long game. (Heck, you could almost say the same thing about Alaska or Jetblue who each have their own structural issues) If guys want to give up flow to roll the dice at one of them, it probably behooves them to do a careful line by line.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:40 AM   #19  
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A couple of outliers with family connections or unique resumes do not constitute a trend. Outside of the usual USAF/USN fighter or heavy profile, civilian hires at the big three still fit the usual profile of 4000-5000 TT, 1000-1500+ TPIC, volunteer and/or union work, and maybe a check airman letter.

Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant do not equal the same career expectations or opportunities that exist at the legacies. Quick cash, etc., does not constitute playing the long game. (Heck, you could almost say the same thing about Alaska or Jetblue who each have their own structural issues) If guys want to give up flow to roll the dice at one of them, it probably behooves them to do a careful line by line.
This is spot on. Well said.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:56 AM   #20  
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A couple of outliers with family connections or unique resumes do not constitute a trend. Outside of the usual USAF/USN fighter or heavy profile, civilian hires at the big three still fit the usual profile of 4000-5000 TT, 1000-1500+ TPIC, volunteer and/or union work, and maybe a check airman letter.

Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant do not equal the same career expectations or opportunities that exist at the legacies. Quick cash, etc., does not constitute playing the long game. (Heck, you could almost say the same thing about Alaska or Jetblue who each have their own structural issues) If guys want to give up flow to roll the dice at one of them, it probably behooves them to do a careful line by line.
Of course the current ones are outliers, I dont think anyone says otherwise, however that is all about to change in the next year or so and sticking to the way things used to work should also be done by a careful line by line.

Depending on your age and other factors, there are opportunities for all, which I think is the underlying point to all of these threads, with Spirit getting most of the attention. If you are 40+ and have a couple years to flow, I think Spirit and the like will make you more in the long run. You will get paid better faster and most importantly upgrade faster. Its all speculation and educated guessing though.
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