Originally Posted by PilotCrusader (Post 1703179)

I know right? Grrrr it makes me so angry? I want them to pay!!!!

Grow up kiddo. Business is business. You aren't even on the right thought process right now.

Originally Posted by buddies8 (Post 1703213)

your idea of good business sense is to constantly agree to give backs as long as you flow? why do we need to negotiate, dont we have a contract for another 6 years?

sorry, your type of business sense is for those who do nothing but capitulate at every turn.

first explain in your non moronic business sense why should envoy pilots consider freezes or concessions of any type?

Originally Posted by Bzzt (Post 1703220)

In very simple terms we have competition (Mesa, Compass, Skywest, PSA, PDT) they are putting out a better (cheaper) product than us. We are losing business (flying) if we don't stop losing business we will be out of a job.

Originally Posted by 35Right (Post 1703233)

They are putting out a cheaper product, not better. Those are not interchangeable. You need to have more appreciation for what you offer, Bzzt. If you are a skilled professional, expect to get compensated like one.

If you dont care about your level of compensation, as long as you still have a job, then you dont have anything to worry about. When Envoy gets shut down, there'll be openings at PSA and Mesa.

Originally Posted by 35Right (Post 1703233)

They are putting out a cheaper product, not better. Those are not interchangeable. You need to have more appreciation for what you offer, Bzzt. If you are a skilled professional, expect to get compensated like one.

If you dont care about your level of compensation, as long as you still have a job, then you dont have anything to worry about. When Envoy gets shut down, there'll be openings at PSA and Mesa.

Originally Posted by Jvw700 (Post 1703240)

Have you been on Skywest or compass? Their product is indeed better! Our product is kinda sorry...

Originally Posted by 35Right (Post 1703233)

They are putting out a cheaper product, not better. Those are not interchangeable. You need to have more appreciation for what you offer, Bzzt. If you are a skilled professional, expect to get compensated like one.

If you dont care about your level of compensation, as long as you still have a job, then you dont have anything to worry about. When Envoy gets shut down, there'll be openings at PSA and Mesa.

Originally Posted by Bzzt (Post 1703258)

To the executives at the legacy airlines we are nothing more that contract labor. Cheaper is "better" when you product is going to be nearly identical to the next guy. Our completion and on time statistics in the LAX hub were very good, did it stop that base from being closed? Nope.

The system isn't fair, it's not even necessarily ethical, but it is what it is. You either play the game or you get removed from the system.

Originally Posted by Morpheus

The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters (other pilots). The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

Originally Posted by embraer (Post 1703064)

This is true...and I'm at my wits end. I don't know everything or always make the best decisions, but I am able to rationalize situations and walk a mile in other people's shoes.

More importantly, I studied Business in college with a heavy emphasis in Negotiations. We studied and practiced the art of business negotiations and broke it down into a science.

The road I see us being led down by all the "aeronautical science" hot heads is scary and dangerous. They talk about "entitlement" attitudes but fail to look in the mirror. They are all acting like that crying kid who is throwing a fit in public, sitting on the ground with his arms crossed and refusing to move.

That IS NOT how negotiations work and will lead us nowhere...which is where this current Union has led us so far. There are some who are truly good guys with good intentions, John Gardner was one of them and I wish he was still here.

The rest, such as the man in question all feel they are soooo much smarter than everyone else. They don't need to listen to input, opinions, or other points of view because they already know everything. A steady stream of sheep lower their heads and follow behind him as if he is the Messiah. And that is exactly how he views himself now...as the all knowing Messiah who can't tell you things for your own good. Oh, but excuse me while I go talk with Pedro behind everyone's back:confused:

Originally Posted by JT8D (Post 1703278)

This post is so hypocritical that I laughed out loud. You are smarter than 'airplane flyers' because of your little degree, but Ray is rogue because he feels so much smarter than everyone else. Nobody gives a damn about your s hitty little degree, the things you learn in the classroom rarely have any relevance in the real world. I have been told by people who've stood at helms of multi billion dollar corporations that this management team is a bunch of inept idiots and we should NOT consider concessions in this environment.

Remember when you had to apologize profusely for 'leaking' that Ray had 'applied' to Delta even though you were dead wrong and RickT paraded your facebook picture everywhere and humiliated you? You said you learned your lesson and it wouldn't happen again. Now here we are, embraer with his know it all attitude because of some gay little business degree is here trying to hang Ray without having even talked to him.

Someone who cannot learn from their own mistakes is by definition a fool.