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Originally Posted by embraer
(Post 1702965)
It's not convenient for the company in one way or another. Ray acted through his own free will...he wasn't coerced.
The company has shown time and again that they are willing to meet us in the middle. Of course they have their own bottom line, but are willing to give up certain things on their part to achieve said bottom line. The problem is that our Union-led by Ray-would frame any proposal from the company as evil and not worth our time. They would sh!t all over anything that came down the pipe. Look at the enhanced flowthrough we were offered. Ray laughed at it because, according to him, every Regional pilot in the country will be at a Legacy within a couple of years. And if not, it will be by choice. That is who we are dealing with and that is why negotiations with Ray at the helm were doomed from the beginning. You hav got to be a management plant. I can not believe one of my fellow peers thinks like you do. |
Originally Posted by embraer
(Post 1702928)
Seems like we traded Team Tony for the Cujo Crew. All these people blindly cheerleading him will feel pretty awkward as facts and names begin to be revealed. I suggest throttling back a bit on the Cujo defense unless you want major egg on your face...just a suggestion.
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Embraer there is no point in attempting to rationally argue with the crowd around here. You have to remember that a large portion of our pilot group knows nothing but how to fly an airplane. When you talk about how businesses work they just get angry, call you names, and scream burn it down.
The last offer was good for both parties, it offered stability at Envoy for those of us who wanted to stay here and opportunities at AA for those who wanted to move on. The flow would have attracted plenty of new hires, and a lot of FOs would have gotten the opportunity to upgrade and improve their resume in hopes of attaining employment at DAL or UAL while waiting in their flow to AA. All of this for a pay cap which protects the company of the market takes a dump again. On that note I have some bad news for the burn it down crowd, if the economy goes to **** and AAG declares bankruptcy you'll be getting that 12/4 deal but with no positives to offset the negatives. We as a pilot group were led astray by the union for a motive I can't comprehend. At the same time it was all too easy for the union to whip the majority of our pilot group into a frenzy and sell a gamble over an impending pilot shortage making other airlines unable to fly the 170s for AAG. I hope everyone learns from this and won't blindly follow their MEC, company, or anyone else in the future. Also don't give me that hollow argument of "I don't trust the company". If you don't trust them then go somewhere else because no matter what you negotiate it won't be worth the paper it's printed on, including the current garbage contract you're all so willing to hit the unemployment line over. I'd advise you all to research contract compliance law and how the courts protect negotiated contracts but frankly I don't think the majority of the sheep here are intelligent enough to comprehend the law. Once eagle closes I will have lost 2 jobs in my lifetime over union politics and dimwitted people making decisions for me, forgive me if I don't have the patience for all the blind anger, union rhetoric, and stupidity I see from this pilot group on a daily basis. In closing the company will always win, they're smarter, better trained, and not hamstrung by archaic organizations (unions) who haven't been useful since "The Jungle". Not to mention it is their money, and they're not going to give you more than what they feel you're worth and can afford. Inc. indignant rage with no rational argument from some, name calling from others, and the sunglasses smiley emoticon from eaglefly. |
Originally Posted by Jersdawg
(Post 1702955)
If they didn't like our bottom line, then why should we be wasting our time negotiating in the first place??? Seems to me this saves a lot of months of being strung along just to find out the company has been tossing our proposal in the garbage all along.... But hey, scandal makes headlines, right?
Why let things like logic get in the way. I've heard back from a few of the reps, the verdict is still out as nobody has a full understanding of the events yet and emotions are still high. |
Originally Posted by Bzzt
(Post 1703059)
Embraer there is no point in attempting to rationally argue with the crowd around here. You have to remember that a large portion of our pilot group knows nothing but how to fly an airplane. When you talk about how businesses work they just get angry, call you names, and scream burn it down.
The last offer was good for both parties, it offered stability at Envoy for those of us who wanted to stay here and opportunities at AA for those who wanted to move on. The flow would have attracted plenty of new hires, and a lot of FOs would have gotten the opportunity to upgrade and improve their resume in hopes of attaining employment at DAL or UAL while waiting in their flow to AA. All of this for a pay cap which protects the company of the market takes a dump again. On that note I have some bad news for the burn it down crowd, if the economy goes to **** and AAG declares bankruptcy you'll be getting that 12/4 deal but with no positives to offset the negatives. We as a pilot group were led astray by the union for a motive I can't comprehend. At the same time it was all too easy for the union to whip the majority of our pilot group into a frenzy and sell a gamble over an impending pilot shortage making other airlines unable to fly the 170s for AAG. I hope everyone learns from this and won't blindly follow their MEC, company, or anyone else in the future. Also don't give me that hollow argument of "I don't trust the company". If you don't trust them then go somewhere else because no matter what you negotiate it won't be worth the paper it's printed on, including the current garbage contract you're all so willing to hit the unemployment line over. I'd advise you all to research contract compliance law and how the courts protect negotiated contracts but frankly I don't think the majority of the sheep here are intelligent enough to comprehend the law. Once eagle closes I will have lost 2 jobs in my lifetime over union politics and dimwitted people making decisions for me, forgive me if I don't have the patience for all the blind anger, union rhetoric, and stupidity I see from this pilot group on a daily basis. In closing the company will always win, they're smarter, better trained, and not hamstrung by archaic organizations (unions) who haven't been useful since "The Jungle". Not to mention it is their money, and they're not going to give you more than what they feel you're worth and can afford. Inc. indignant rage with no rational argument from some, name calling from others, and the sunglasses smiley emoticon from eaglefly. More importantly, I studied Business in college with a heavy emphasis in Negotiations. We studied and practiced the art of business negotiations and broke it down into a science. The road I see us being led down by all the "aeronautical science" hot heads is scary and dangerous. They talk about "entitlement" attitudes but fail to look in the mirror. They are all acting like that crying kid who is throwing a fit in public, sitting on the ground with his arms crossed and refusing to move. That IS NOT how negotiations work and will lead us nowhere...which is where this current Union has led us so far. There are some who are truly good guys with good intentions, John Gardner was one of them and I wish he was still here. The rest, such as the man in question all feel they are soooo much smarter than everyone else. They don't need to listen to input, opinions, or other points of view because they already know everything. A steady stream of sheep lower their heads and follow behind him as if he is the Messiah. And that is exactly how he views himself now...as the all knowing Messiah who can't tell you things for your own good. Oh, but excuse me while I go talk with Pedro behind everyone's back:confused: |
Originally Posted by Bzzt
(Post 1703059)
Embraer there is no point in attempting to rationally argue with the crowd around here. You have to remember that a large portion of our pilot group knows nothing but how to fly an airplane. When you talk about how businesses work they just get angry, call you names, and scream burn it down.
The last offer was good for both parties, it offered stability at Envoy for those of us who wanted to stay here and opportunities at AA for those who wanted to move on. The flow would have attracted plenty of new hires, and a lot of FOs would have gotten the opportunity to upgrade and improve their resume in hopes of attaining employment at DAL or UAL while waiting in their flow to AA. All of this for a pay cap which protects the company of the market takes a dump again. On that note I have some bad news for the burn it down crowd, if the economy goes to **** and AAG declares bankruptcy you'll be getting that 12/4 deal but with no positives to offset the negatives. We as a pilot group were led astray by the union for a motive I can't comprehend. At the same time it was all too easy for the union to whip the majority of our pilot group into a frenzy and sell a gamble over an impending pilot shortage making other airlines unable to fly the 170s for AAG. I hope everyone learns from this and won't blindly follow their MEC, company, or anyone else in the future. Also don't give me that hollow argument of "I don't trust the company". If you don't trust them then go somewhere else because no matter what you negotiate it won't be worth the paper it's printed on, including the current garbage contract you're all so willing to hit the unemployment line over. I'd advise you all to research contract compliance law and how the courts protect negotiated contracts but frankly I don't think the majority of the sheep here are intelligent enough to comprehend the law. Once eagle closes I will have lost 2 jobs in my lifetime over union politics and dimwitted people making decisions for me, forgive me if I don't have the patience for all the blind anger, union rhetoric, and stupidity I see from this pilot group on a daily basis. In closing the company will always win, they're smarter, better trained, and not hamstrung by archaic organizations (unions) who haven't been useful since "The Jungle". Not to mention it is their money, and they're not going to give you more than what they feel you're worth and can afford. Inc. indignant rage with no rational argument from some, name calling from others, and the sunglasses smiley emoticon from eaglefly. There will of course be those who would argue that if not Envoy, then it will simply be someone else but I do not believe that to be true. Each time an airline such as comair is forced to close, a portion of those pilots are lost forever because they can't or won't come back for $20,000 per year. I believe this has the desired effect of returning the flying to mainline quicker. |
Originally Posted by Bzzt
(Post 1703059)
Embraer there is no point in attempting to rationally argue with the crowd around here. You have to remember that a large portion of our pilot group knows nothing but how to fly an airplane. When you talk about how businesses work they just get angry, call you names, and scream burn it down.
The last offer was good for both parties, it offered stability at Envoy for those of us who wanted to stay here and opportunities at AA for those who wanted to move on. The flow would have attracted plenty of new hires, and a lot of FOs would have gotten the opportunity to upgrade and improve their resume in hopes of attaining employment at DAL or UAL while waiting in their flow to AA. All of this for a pay cap which protects the company of the market takes a dump again. On that note I have some bad news for the burn it down crowd, if the economy goes to **** and AAG declares bankruptcy you'll be getting that 12/4 deal but with no positives to offset the negatives. We as a pilot group were led astray by the union for a motive I can't comprehend. At the same time it was all too easy for the union to whip the majority of our pilot group into a frenzy and sell a gamble over an impending pilot shortage making other airlines unable to fly the 170s for AAG. I hope everyone learns from this and won't blindly follow their MEC, company, or anyone else in the future. Also don't give me that hollow argument of "I don't trust the company". If you don't trust them then go somewhere else because no matter what you negotiate it won't be worth the paper it's printed on, including the current garbage contract you're all so willing to hit the unemployment line over. I'd advise you all to research contract compliance law and how the courts protect negotiated contracts but frankly I don't think the majority of the sheep here are intelligent enough to comprehend the law. Once eagle closes I will have lost 2 jobs in my lifetime over union politics and dimwitted people making decisions for me, forgive me if I don't have the patience for all the blind anger, union rhetoric, and stupidity I see from this pilot group on a daily basis. In closing the company will always win, they're smarter, better trained, and not hamstrung by archaic organizations (unions) who haven't been useful since "The Jungle". Not to mention it is their money, and they're not going to give you more than what they feel you're worth and can afford. Inc. indignant rage with no rational argument from some, name calling from others, and the sunglasses smiley emoticon from eaglefly. |
Originally Posted by Bzzt
(Post 1703059)
In closing the company will always win, they're smarter, better trained, and not hamstrung by archaic organizations (unions) who haven't been useful since "The Jungle". Not to mention it is their money, and they're not going to give you more than what they feel you're worth and can afford.
Get some self worth and take a little pride in your skills. Either that, or go work for PSA.. you would fit right in there. Your mind set isn't need here, and wouldn't be welcome at AA let alone any other major airline. |
Originally Posted by AnotherEagleGuy
(Post 1703106)
You might as well just hand them your paycheck from here on out because with you, the company has already won.
Get some self worth and take a little pride in your skills. Either that, or go work for PSA.. you would fit right in there. Your mind set isn't need here, and wouldn't be welcome at AA let alone any other major airline. The fact is we provide the exact same product as any other regional, they're just able to bid lower than we are. New hires are clamoring to go to places like PSA, Compass, and Mesa. Why do you think that is? They're betting on an upgrade which will give them more earning potential than any FO at Envoy, and at the same time constructing a better resume than any FO at Envoy will be capable of. I hope you're a CA who is flowing soon, otherwise by voting no on that last deal you signed your own death warrant. "Pride goeth before the fall." |
Originally Posted by Bzzt
(Post 1703059)
Embraer there is no point in attempting to rationally argue with the crowd around here. You have to remember that a large portion of our pilot group knows nothing but how to fly an airplane. When you talk about how businesses work they just get angry, call you names, and scream burn it down.
The last offer was good for both parties, it offered stability at Envoy for those of us who wanted to stay here and opportunities at AA for those who wanted to move on. The flow would have attracted plenty of new hires, and a lot of FOs would have gotten the opportunity to upgrade and improve their resume in hopes of attaining employment at DAL or UAL while waiting in their flow to AA. All of this for a pay cap which protects the company of the market takes a dump again. On that note I have some bad news for the burn it down crowd, if the economy goes to **** and AAG declares bankruptcy you'll be getting that 12/4 deal but with no positives to offset the negatives. We as a pilot group were led astray by the union for a motive I can't comprehend. At the same time it was all too easy for the union to whip the majority of our pilot group into a frenzy and sell a gamble over an impending pilot shortage making other airlines unable to fly the 170s for AAG. I hope everyone learns from this and won't blindly follow their MEC, company, or anyone else in the future. Also don't give me that hollow argument of "I don't trust the company". If you don't trust them then go somewhere else because no matter what you negotiate it won't be worth the paper it's printed on, including the current garbage contract you're all so willing to hit the unemployment line over. I'd advise you all to research contract compliance law and how the courts protect negotiated contracts but frankly I don't think the majority of the sheep here are intelligent enough to comprehend the law. Once eagle closes I will have lost 2 jobs in my lifetime over union politics and dimwitted people making decisions for me, forgive me if I don't have the patience for all the blind anger, union rhetoric, and stupidity I see from this pilot group on a daily basis. In closing the company will always win, they're smarter, better trained, and not hamstrung by archaic organizations (unions) who haven't been useful since "The Jungle". Not to mention it is their money, and they're not going to give you more than what they feel you're worth and can afford. Inc. indignant rage with no rational argument from some, name calling from others, and the sunglasses smiley emoticon from eaglefly. I'm only watching from the sidelines but didn't the Eagle Pilot Group vote No on the AIP they were presented, after the MEC on round two let it go to a pilot vote. So you seem to have a problem with how your "Dimwitted Pilot Group" voted. Maybe you're the one that should leave. |
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