Originally Posted by wareagle (Post 1703524)

First of all, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that what they offered would have actually made a significant difference in how fast we get to AA. We have 20/month minimum right now for the next 600 or so pilots, with an arbitrator's award stating that they need to make the effort to bring it back towards 50% overall. If we are losing airplanes there is no reason for them to continue metering, and therefore we should be getting 30/month or close to it anyway through the rest of the 824. After that, considering the additional attrition that we have due to our unstable situation, what they offered would probably make a difference of a few months to a year to guys that are near the bottom of the pre-2011 hires that are guaranteed an eventual no-interview position. FOs junior to that have little to lose by going elsewhere for a quicker upgrade. I don't personally think that it's worth freezing in poor wages and pay caps for a decade to make these "gains."
It doesn't make sense to accuse "no" voters of unrealistic optimism when, as everyone should know, this industry could take a nose-dive tomorrow, AA could stop hiring, and we'd all be stuck where we are, except with pay caps and no real raises for the next 10 years. Events that may seem unlikely can still turn that contract into very real concessions.
There is absolutely, 100% no way that this company would have re-opened an LAX base. The thing you are right about is that they aim to operate based on numbers and financial incentives. We could have signed that contract and we still would not have been any cheaper than other operators in LAX. Why would they go through the trouble of re-establishing a base, in direct contradiction to their general business plan of shrinking Envoy's share of regional feed to be more in proportion with other operators in the portfolio? A consistent theme in the shareholder meetings and analyst quotes for the past decade was how American Eagle was the "underperforming" regional unit with costs that were out of line and dismal performance numbers. In reality, this wasn't the fault of the pilots, it was due to inept management, age 65, and the last disastrous flow/flowback arrangement. Executives don't care about that and never will--their solution from day 1 was to shrink us and contract out to cheaper operators. Even signing the AIP would have left us significantly smaller than we used to be. They didn't come to us before they closed LAX and gave flying to Skywest and Republic because contracts and concessions are irrelevant to their larger business philosophy, which is that no single airline should be providing 95% of feed.

Originally Posted by wareagle (Post 1703531)

There a lot of variables in those numbers, I don't think it's as simple as just saying "2 years."

Originally Posted by Bzzt (Post 1703530)

Actually for a 2011 hire the AIP made the difference of nearly 2 years earlier to both a CA spot and an eventual position at AA. If this economy goes into a recession, or another major catastrophe happens you will be getting the 12/4 pay cap regardless, your current contract will not protect you.

Originally Posted by PilotJ3 (Post 1703566)

Wrong...

When I looked at the "Upgrade projection" table that Winkley did.,,

I was showing that I would upgrade in 2016 with the AIP. Without the AIP was in the same middle between 2016 and 2017.

I'm a 2010 hired and refuse to be capped for 2 years "waiting" for my upgrade. I will not give per diem away, because food price increase. Why would I give away money for food? They can get per diem, if they give me at least 5% pay increase. We all have families and bills to pay. I do have a second job to maintain or not fancy life style.

How is that Bk TA working? They are constantly violating it. They cannot abide our current contract, how can we trust them?

Sorry Btzzz, they burn it down crowd voted No this time. While every body was happy that the BK TA passed, I said myself "we are going to be screwed in a merger situation". And that's what's happening, management knows we are a weak group. And even that we voted no, they know we won't hold the line much longer.

Voting on the Bk TA in the first attempt, was wrong. PSA made our situation worst.

I'm not willing to sell someone else future because it doesn't affect me as a grandfathered pilot.

How about if they increase our overall pay scale. Let's make it:

1st yr $30
2nd yr $35
3rd yr $45
4th yr $55

That way the company is motivated to never have a 3rd or 4th yr FO.

We know that would never happen, because pilots are self destructive. Pilots just want to fly a bigger airplane, not a bigger check. Pilots only want upgrade, not QOL while waiting for that upgrade.

Open your eyes guys, we've been played by management. Look what only 1 post have done for the last 3 days?

Have you guys even think about this? All this happened a SATURDAY!!! A day that management doesn't work.