Airline Pilot Central Forums - Envoy/Eagle to get 40 E-175's w/90 options

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- - Envoy/Eagle to get 40 E-175's w/90 options (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/envoy-airlines/85603-envoy-eagle-get-40-e-175s-w-90-options.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by u4gotthecoffee (Post 1844789)

312 thanks for the response! I heard about endeavor. It's exciting to see supply and demand theory at work in the regional industry. I know the industry is horrible right now at the regional level (I have friends at the regionals) but I cant help but try to embrace the "there's only one way you can go when you hit rock bottom" philosophy, and I have to believe that is where the industry has been and that it's on it's way out. God forbid it gets any worse than it already was/is.

I here you on the shrinking aspect, but I have a suspicion that it will be temporary and then will reverse considering the contract language. I think that at least some, if not all, the 90 frames will land on property in the future. Building off what you said about management locking in a crappy contract because they know they will have to offer way more in the near future, they will try to entice, and I think it will work, new hires with those frames and the flow because its a cheaper alternative than paying first year FO's 50k like they deserve. If anything the contract is 10 years right? Can AA shrink the regional to nothing per the contract or is there some sort of guarantee/clause for a minimum fleet? I really don't know.

Also, they can't shrink envoy to the point that it puts the flow pilots out of a job right? So as of right now isn't that like 1500 pilots, or even more? What are your thoughts on how things will really turn out, considering the 10 year contract, and the pilots on property right now that have flow through rights? Do you think that envoy will eventually get all 90 of those frames?

We will not get all 90 airplanes. Our management has no interest in running an airline anymore, for them it is nothing more than an organization from which they extract a big paycheck. With regard to the operational side of things, they have proven that they have no interest in investing even the basic amount of money required to keep the place running smoothly on a daily basis. According to the DOT, envoy has had the worst on time rating out of any airline in the nation for 4 months in a row now. It will only get worse. By the time you graduate, this airline will not exist in its current state. AAG can easily shrink it down to nothing. There is a flimsy furlough protection clause in the contract, but I've had the company breach the furlough section of the contract on me personally in the past, and they will gladly do it again tomorrow if it suits their needs.

Even for current FO's at this company, flow through is a joke. Senior FO's will have to wait about 2.5 to 3 years to flow over under ideal circumstances. Keep in mind these are guys who already have 7+ years in at a crappy regional and who are highly marketable everywhere else in the industry right now. History has shown that flow through agreements are highly volatile by nature (ask the guys who were hired at Eagle before 2001 and are JUST NOW flowing over). Waiting for the elusive carrot at the end of the stick that is flow through is a bad move for anyone not going within the next year. For a prospective new hire, it's completely useless in its current iteration.

I'm sure this question has been asked before but approximately how many years would it take for a new hire at Envoy (say June/July 2015 hire) to flow to AA?
Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CFIatKFXE (Post 1873917)

I'm sure this question has been asked before but approximately how many years would it take for a new hire at Envoy (say June/July 2015 hire) to flow to AA?
Thank you.

The current pilots flowing were told they would only spend 3 years max at their regional. 16 years later, they are flowing, and stil having delays. YMMV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CFIatKFXE (Post 1873917)

I'm sure this question has been asked before but approximately how many years would it take for a new hire at Envoy (say June/July 2015 hire) to flow to AA?
Thank you.

10-20 years.... who knows with the way things work at AAG, its a gamble most are not willing to take after seeing that history held.

Well the document the company and the union put out before the latest TA claimed 2022 for someone hired in 2015. But this can go either way. In what the company would like people to believe now, we will shrink for the next year before some growth. Which will cause quick upgrades and fast flow(5 years new hire to flow). That is the unicorns and rainbows version of the future. It's possible but requires everything to go smoothly and probably more concessions(for oprions 42-xx). Others will tell you (see above) that they will cease all flight ops and be a ground handling company. Usually the truth is in the middle.

I would only consider Envoy if I could live in base. The flow can disappear for a new hire.

If 5-7yr flow comes to reality, I would definitely consider Envoy. Getting closer to 1500, gotta make a decision soon! Ugh

If you do your research. Historicly speaking "flow through" programs have worked for a very few select group... One peice of advice i give to all new in this business is never ever chase a "flow program" ...

Quote:

The flow can disappear for a new hire

That's what it says in the contract???

As has been mentioned before:

In 18 months Envoy will be at the optimum size AA wants. At THAT point it will be 5 years from new hire to flowing up to American Airlines. Numbers based on our flow through and pilot size.

For those who always love to bash the flow, you have to turn the other cheek. AA spent the better part of 15 years not hiring ANYBODY. Eagle/Envoy has only had a flow agreement for a relatively short time. And on that short time AA only recently started hiring and thus allowing flows.

You can take a look at the combined AA/Us Airways retirement numbers for yourself and you will see that hiring will not stop anytime soon at all. That means that pilots from Envoy will continue to flow each month..in November the flow rate goes up to 30/month. Pilots who come to Envoy ahead of the wave will be even better positioned. Everybody is flowing including many of the doomsdayers who in the past claimed the flow was fake. Now they are flying the line at AA in a 767 or Md-80.

Remember also an important part of
Our contract: you don't need to be Captain to flow to AA. An Envoy FO can flow up without ever having upgraded first.

And no, the flow can NOT just disappear for new hires. It is in the contract and any violations come with BIG gains through arbitration. It's how we got our original flow in the first place.